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Stefan Daniel

Serviceability M8 & M8.2 displays

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Would be less complicated and more efficient to use Leica Digital Capture IMHO

Well, but remember, for Windows users, that Leica Digital Capture only works on the now obsolete Windows xp.

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Guest Ron (Netherlands)

It is very understandable what Herr SD is trying to achieve here. This sort of messages will kick the M8/M8.2 faster out of the market making room for the M9-series and as a result of that making stockroom for the coming M10. Currently Leica may not have enough outlets for there new products due to the belated and slow delivery of the M9. So from that viewpoint Herr SD is doing a wonderfull job for Leica - and I can appreciate his message very much in this respect, since the company has to overcome very hard economic times.

 

That said, keep in mind that Leica is in many many ways not the same company as it was thirty/forty years ago - not even with respect to quality and long run service. That is all ok of course in current times where we have more aggressive markets and investment, but what could easily be felt by the public as misleading, is their continuous use of the outstanding reputation of the former Leica company, while they cannot meet that standard (of service) any more - like no company can.

 

(btw I really liked and was seriously impressed by Leica's aggressive marketing with regard the the MM now reading messages of quite many people thinking they can't make good pictures without having one :-)

 

 

last point (idea for Leica service department): make the X2 a trade in for old M8 / M8.2 with broken lcd's

Edited by Ron (Netherlands)

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Guest jarski
How would these be done without an LCD?

 

Pete.

 

- sensor cleaning

---> wonder does "B" exposure and battery removal together leave shutter open? maybe this could be enabled in firmware level?

 

- sd card formatting

---> on computer or other camera.

 

- 6-bit code recognition (particularly 16-18-21 WATE)

---> if user must have this, dont see other option than going for M9.

 

- resetting the camera

---> as user cannot change settings anymore, would this still be needed?

 

- installing/reinstalling firmware versions

---> would not be possible, but if camera goes Leica for modification, it would have latest firmware anyway.

 

setting correct time in camera would be "challenging" without some external software and USB connection.

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Jarski,

 

Yes Bulb setting would work providing one had a remote shutter release with a lock on it but of course you'd run the risk of shutter damage if the release failed while cleaning the sensor. That's why the firmware safely locks the shutter open while the sensor's being cleaned

 

Formatting SD cards on a computer has been shown to often cause problems.

 

6-bit registration is necessary to compensate for colour shift and vignetting in wide angle lenses so it's necessary. CornerFix is very good but I've never found it to be as good as the in-camera compensation.

 

As an M8 user I would be very unhappy to find that I needed to reset the software in my M8 to restart it but wasn't able to do it. I believe that Reset does more than just setting the user-changeable functions back to zero and re-initialises the firmware like in many other electronic contraptions.

 

Having to send the camera away to Leica for several weeks at a significant cost of shipping, insurance, and labour to have firmware installed or reinstalled doesn't sound attractive to me. Besides, how would Leica do it without a LCD screen either?

 

Pete.

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Could someone tell me whether Leica has said that M8s won't be supported anymore, or does this only apply to replacement screens?

 

Since I'm thinking of buying one it would be nice to know. This is not a loaded question I promise! Thanks.

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Could someone tell me whether Leica has said that M8s won't be supported anymore, or does this only apply to replacement screens?

 

Since I'm thinking of buying one it would be nice to know. This is not a loaded question I promise! Thanks.

 

As far as anyone knows it's the LCD that they can't replace, although there's a report from someone else who had another fault with their M8 which Leica wouldn't repair (and offered an 'upgrade') so it would appear that the repairs they can do, or are willing to do, may be more limited. I guess it's a case by case basis.

 

I don't know if Leica have offered any firmware updates for the M8? I read a reference to the remote capture software being outdated and not compatible with latest OS.

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Could someone tell me whether Leica has said that M8s won't be supported anymore, or does this only apply to replacement screens?

 

Since I'm thinking of buying one it would be nice to know. This is not a loaded question I promise! Thanks.

Petter,

 

As James says, Leica can't repair or replace a LCD screen but it's continuing to support M8's and M8.2's short of that. Regrettably there doesn't appear to be a way to determine whether an M8's screen was from the supplier's faulty batch.

 

Pete.

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Could someone tell me whether Leica has said that M8s won't be supported anymore, or does this only apply to replacement screens?

 

Since I'm thinking of buying one it would be nice to know. This is not a loaded question I promise! Thanks.

 

As James said, Leica apparently offer a paid upgrade if they consider the repair to be uneconomical - not just on LCDs.

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Leica could follow the NASA model for keeping systems running that depend on obsolete materials.

 

Stefan- quietly visit the respective camera forums and but the lightly used M8's being sold by sellers wanting to buy an M9, M10, or Monochrom. You will assist them in buying your new products, and get a small stockpile of M8's for those users that do not want to upgrade. Some near mint M8's going for about $2K each. The money will come right back to Leica,

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Aren't you forgetting that the LCD has uses other than chimping?

- sensor cleaning

- sd card formatting

- 6-bit code recognition (particularly 16-18-21 WATE)

- resetting the camera

- installing/reinstalling firmware versions

 

How would these be done without an LCD?

 

Pete.

 

It could all be done "blind" using a printed flow-chart of the menu option order (or a working M8 if one happens to have a second body). One would need to remember what custom settings one has, and one would need to make changes after turning the camera off and then back on, so the menus comes up in default order. Then by using the up-down-left-right buttons one could count presses and get to where one wants. If one lost count then it would be necessary to shut the camera off, turn it back on and start over. For major changes, a reset to factory defaults would probably be the best starting point. Re-installing firmware would be possible but risky in that there would be no indication as to when it had finished loading and safe to shut the camera off. Obviously this is a PITA, and very slow for on-the-fly shooting, but it is possible, so a person motivated enough by his principles does have an option between throwing the camera in the trash or knuckling-under to Leica's sugar-coated extortion.

 

The M9 is actually more crippled without the LCD because there is no other way to see remaining card and battery capacity.

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A fair point, Boca, but I hope I don't end up having to use my M8 without a screen because, although workable, it wouldn't be straightforward.

 

I primarily use my M8 for shooting infrared and I'm already fortunate to have an M9 so an upgrade from a damaged M8 to an M9 wouldn't be of interest to me.

 

Pete.

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Leica could follow the NASA model for keeping systems running that depend on obsolete materials.

 

By taxing the public to pay for it?

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I doubt Leica would add a Tax to new cameras to support M8 users. That would be stupid. My M8 was bought new in October 2010, original sales receipt supplied with the camera. Not being able to offer a repair/replacement for a camera that is 3 years old would be a stupid move by a company with a reputation for lifetime service. There are several ways of handling this problem, but one in which some customers are offered an M9 for $3900 on a take it or leave it offer- that would not go far to restore confidence. A viable solution that is priced within the current expecations for a repair service is required. Having a small stock of M8's available as a replacement at the same cost of a repair would be viable, and not as expensive as making a new board and new firmware to take the place of the ones no longer available. Buying a small stock of M8's on the second hand market is the suggestion, as NASA has done in the past and does currently for hard to find electronic components.

 

Reading the posts about this problem, it is clear that not many people have dealt with digital electronics for very long.

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It could all be done "blind" using a printed flow-chart of the menu option order (or a working M8 if one happens to have a second body). One would need to remember what custom settings one has, and one would need to make changes after turning the camera off and then back on, so the menus comes up in default order. Then by using the up-down-left-right buttons one could count presses and get to where one wants. If one lost count then it would be necessary to shut the camera off, turn it back on and start over. For major changes, a reset to factory defaults would probably be the best starting point. Re-installing firmware would be possible but risky in that there would be no indication as to when it had finished loading and safe to shut the camera off...

 

They could team up with Rubik's Cube and make another special edition.

 

The risk of formatting by accident would be one of the things that would make using this camera especially "manly."

Edited by AlanG

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First of all, a thanks to Mr. Daniel that he put an official statement here to the forum. It shows the closeness of the Leica company to their user base that an admittedly heated discussion here would trigger an official statement by the upper management.

Yes it is disappointing, that both the DMR and the M8 seem to turn unserviceable so soon, but I fear it is only the tip of an iceberg, especially the car industry will have to fight to keep modern cars running as long as their predecessors. A target service expectancy of 10 years for a digital camera sounds quite reasonable. Leica is hit most by this challenge, as most other electronic products deprecate so fast, that repairs become economically uninteresting long before they become technically difficult.

Taking everything into respect, upgrading to an M9 should be the best solution for most M8 users in case it cannot be repaired. Unless one is doing infrared photography, I don't see anything the M9 cannot do as well if not much better than the M8 - if you are concerned about the focal lengths, just crop the pictures, until you match the pixel count of the M8.

So, in the end, all this discussion boils down to the question on how expensive the upgrade offer is - and official numbers have not been published on that. Unless the upgrade is very expensive, most M8 users should be very happy eventually taking up that offer.

 

Peter

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Indeed we are privileged to have a response from the people whose livelihoods depend upon our custom. Caps duly doffed.

 

I think that you'll find the cost of the upgrade is not insignificant and probably beyond the reach of many, but hey, why are they bothering with Leica if they don't have the odd few thousand euros to throw away, this is a club for the elite (as says Leica spokesman celeb snapper Seal).

 

10 years life expectancy might be fair but some M8 owners have only had their cameras for 3 years. Is that a fair 'lifetime'? I wonder if Stefan had said in his gracious response that 3 years was as much as they could promise for M9 users, would the loyal supporters be as loyal??

 

 

First of all, a thanks to Mr. Daniel that he put an official statement here to the forum. It shows the closeness of the Leica company to their user base that an admittedly heated discussion here would trigger an official statement by the upper management.

Yes it is disappointing, that both the DMR and the M8 seem to turn unserviceable so soon, but I fear it is only the tip of an iceberg, especially the car industry will have to fight to keep modern cars running as long as their predecessors. A target service expectancy of 10 years for a digital camera sounds quite reasonable. Leica is hit most by this challenge, as most other electronic products deprecate so fast, that repairs become economically uninteresting long before they become technically difficult.

Taking everything into respect, upgrading to an M9 should be the best solution for most M8 users in case it cannot be repaired. Unless one is doing infrared photography, I don't see anything the M9 cannot do as well if not much better than the M8 - if you are concerned about the focal lengths, just crop the pictures, until you match the pixel count of the M8.

So, in the end, all this discussion boils down to the question on how expensive the upgrade offer is - and official numbers have not been published on that. Unless the upgrade is very expensive, most M8 users should be very happy eventually taking up that offer.

 

Peter

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I'm sure glad I read this thread. I've been looking at some used M8.2s. After reading this I'll have to stick with my X1 until I can afford a used M9.

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I'm sure glad I read this thread. I've been looking at some used M8.2s. After reading this I'll have to stick with my X1 until I can afford a used M9.

 

 

This is exemplifies the problem current M8 owners have to face with a camera not fully supported by Leica.

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M8 users are often second hand owners who had not the budget for a new M8, let alone an M9. Some others like yours truly will not pay 3900 £/€/$

to get an end-of-life body instead of receiving a refund or a replacement M8 they might consider to be due to them in case of unfixable defect of the LCD.

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