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Stefan Daniel

Serviceability M8 & M8.2 displays

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As pklein has also suggested, the issue here I think is Leica's marketing language. Although we all know the reality of consumer electronics (I have a film scanner that's less than ten years old and the mfg has totally abandoned it), the fact is that we often get swayed into believing the hype. And that's why marketing can be effective. And mfgs know this.

 

I'm sure one of the lessons for Leica will be to re-think their marketing language and tone it down a bit. It will still be filled with a lot of the usual hyperbole, that's to be expected. But I think the 'lifetime' language will be amended. Consumers get wiser. And the mfgs make changes to their products and policies. It's kind of like an ongoing process and with both sides stumbling a bit along the way.

 

10 years is a long time in 'digital age' (~62 years in 'dog age.') There will be all sorts of new products, both Leica and non-Leica in 10 years.

 

In the meantime here's hoping that owners of the M8/8.2 will never have an LCD issue and can enjoy their cameras without anxiety.

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Interesting to find out how a Leica dealer would solve a 12 months warranty on a used sold M8......in case the LCD dies:confused:

 

John

 

My father bought us a used Bronica S, on which the shutter jammed. The dealer first sent it to Bronica for repair but they said a part required was unavailable (the camera was over 20yrs old then) so they (the Bronica distributor) offered us a new ETRS for a token extra sum, too good a deal to refuse.

 

Dealers selling M8s now will either have to sell 'as seen' at reduced prices, or offer a refund or negotiate the upgrade deal with Leica if the customer wants to do that.

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Indeed. As should we all.

 

Well I always did. Others are/were perhaps naive, but Leica has without question been disingenuous with their marketing. This isn't a service life issue; it's one of principle.

 

I suspect that you "don't share the feelings of negativity on this issue," as you say, because you're not an M8 or M8.2 owner. For some of them, there is no ten year commitment, and even for the rest their cameras are probably now worth less as a result of this ordeal.

 

Leica is trying to make the best of an unfortunate situation, and it's commendable that the CEO has stepped forward to address the forum. But the caution you express regarding 'lifetime' should also be heeded even for a ten year commitment. One shouldn't be naive even in the face of these new statements.

 

As you note, it wasn't long ago that Leica's viability as a company was in question. Change and downturns can happen in this competitive (and internet) age to any company, including Leica again. And despite best efforts, electronic part replacements may not last in every instance. I love the product, but words are still just words, and buyer beware remains the prudent course. R users, DMR users and now M8 users have been schooled in reality. It would just be nice if Leica chose some better, more honest, words for their marketing.

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S

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At this point I feel the same about thinking twice to take and use the M8 outdoors, now. Not happy about it, as I really like my M8.

 

As I posted before....insurance!

 

I don't take my car out without insurance because I can't afford to repair or replace it if I have an accident.

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Given the accelerating advance of technology, I doubt many people would want an M9 in ten years.

 

Think of what things will be like then. It will be profoundly different than ten years ago is to now.

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By the way, hello to all my fellow HP RPN calculator users! I'm afflicted with that disease, too.

 

--Peter

 

Interesting how we've all come out of the woodwork.

 

To raise an heretical alternative: there are also some excellent HP calculor emulation apps for iPhones. Convenient, but they just don't have the feel of those lovely old HP buttons, and my iPhone won't give me more than 20 years of reliable service:)

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... and it's commendable that the CEO has stepped forward to address the forum.

 

Just for the record, Stefan Daniel is not CEO

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NOTICE TO ALL M8/8.2 OWNERS:

 

"please contact me if you have an unserviceable M8/8.2 due to dead LCD. I will purchase for generous price of >$2000 depending on overall condition of camera".

 

It just hit me like a lightning bolt whilst having my morning shower.

 

Unless I'm missing something obvious there is hope yet for M8 owners.

 

I would seriously argue that Stefan Daniel has just ensured the maintenance of the value of the used M8, especially for those who can't afford the upgrade? Anyone who wants an M9/M9P cheaper just buys an M8 with dead sensor for appropriate retail value. Leica is now obliged to offer an M9/M9P upgrade to replace these faulty M8s and get them out of circulation. Pay up the difference to get an M9/M9P.

 

Leica have fulfilled their obligation, the oroginal M8 owner has received a fair price for their dud M8, and the person who could afford it just got a cheap new M9/M9P. Everyone goes home happy.

Edited by MarkP

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Until Leica see the camera you have no idea what they will offer for an upgrade or if they'll offer it at all.

 

As for the former owner, what does he/she do?

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I was out streetshooting this evening with my M8 and happened across a homeless person lying in a sleeping bag in the doorway of a shop. I asked if he minded if I took a photo of him and he said "No problem, fire away." While I was considering the light and angles he said "That looks like a nice camera." I said "Yes, but I've just discovered that if the LCD screen breaks then the manufacturer can't repair it and unless I pay thousands of pounds for an upgrade model it'll be worthless." "Crikey," the homeless man replied "and there I was thinking I had problems.".

 

Pete.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, not a true story but created to help with perspective.

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Interesting how we've all come out of the woodwork.

 

To raise an heretical alternative: there are also some excellent HP calculor emulation apps for iPhones. Convenient, but they just don't have the feel of those lovely old HP buttons, and my iPhone won't give me more than 20 years of reliable service:)

 

Ahhhhh...

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NOTICE TO ALL M8/8.2 OWNERS:

 

"please contact me if you have an unserviceable M8/8.2 due to dead LCD. I will purchase for generous price of >$2000 depending on overall condition of camera".

 

 

It just hit me like a lightning bolt whilst having my morning shower.

 

Unless I'm missing something obvious there is hope yet for M8 owners.

 

I would seriously argue that Stefan Daniel has just ensured the maintenance of the value of the used M8, especially for those who can't afford the upgrade? Anyone who wants an M9/M9P cheaper just buys an M8 with dead sensor for appropriate retail value. Leica is now obliged to offer an M9/M9P upgrade to replace these faulty M8s and get them out of circulation. Pay up the difference to get an M9/M9P.

 

Leica have fulfilled their obligation, the oroginal M8 owner has received a fair price for their dud M8, and the person who could afford it just got a cheap new M9/M9P. Everyone goes home happy.

 

... with some doubt on the original M8 owner...

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NOTICE TO ALL M8/8.2 OWNERS:

 

I would seriously argue that Stefan Daniel has just ensured the maintenance of the value of the used M8, especially for those who can't afford the upgrade? Anyone who wants an M9/M9P cheaper just buys an M8 with dead sensor for appropriate retail value. Leica is now obliged to offer an M9/M9P upgrade to replace these faulty M8s and get them out of circulation. Pay up the difference to get an M9/M9P. )

 

Unqualified retraction following Luigi's comment...it was a nice try though.!

Edited by MarkP

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I often rationalize my Leica purchases by telling people, "well, it's cheaper than a boat."

 

Leica lenses are enduring assets.

Leica film bodies are enduring assets.

Leica digital bodies are depreciating assets, but the depreciation model is significantly better than other manufacturers.

 

I purchased an M8 around the time I also purchased a D2X. Both are functional today. Both cost around $5K. The D2X is worth $800 tops in the market, with no guarantee of trade-in value. The M8 is worth $2600 trade, backed by Leica itself. As for myself, I like that depreciation model much, much better.

 

My respectful advice, use your M8's without doubt. Leica has offered to back the camera's value even if it fails in an unrepairable fashion. No other manufacturer offers this.

 

Prospective users, buy a nice, clean used M8, paying no more than $2600, and you have a chance to use a superb tool with little risk. Even if the camera dies in an unrepairable fashion, its trade value, towards a new M digital, is backed by Leica.

 

One other thought - digital body depreciation is still a bargain compared to the cost of film and processing. It's been a good value for me, and I do not begrudge the depreciation I have paid for the utility I have received, even if it had been 100% over 5 years.

 

Happy shooting. Enjoy the hobby.

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Interesting how we've all come out of the woodwork.

 

To raise an heretical alternative: there are also some excellent HP calculor emulation apps for iPhones. Convenient, but they just don't have the feel of those lovely old HP buttons, and my iPhone won't give me more than 20 years of reliable service:)

 

HP32S II here, made in 1987, in use daily since early 90's - can't break. Best calculator ever.

 

I indeed intended, to use my M8.2 in a very similar fashion - it's fantastic in use, has the same focussing experience, as my other M cameras, fits the same lenses and on top of that has some unique perks, no other Leica M to date has, making it uniquely useful.

 

I don't get all this stupid talk about it being a bad product, outdated camera, etc …

 

If somebody would come along and offer me money and the latest and greatest calculator to snag away my HP, I would be shocked, insulted and astonished, asking "Are you nuts?"

 

Leica doesn't do the right thing in this affair so far. The taken reaction was mandatory, the execution and especially the communication in this regard looks clumsy.

It is not the message, M8 owners want to hear - they, as many people, who bought a Leica product simply want to have a warm feeling, that the manufacturer will take care of their issues and not to worry about it.

 

The opposite has happened - many M8 owners and potential starters into the Leica M system (that includes many potential first Leica customers) will have genuine worries and think twice before making decisions.

 

This is absolutely wrong from a marketing standpoint, absolutely.

 

Sure it makes technically no sense, to freeze valuable company liquidity into a big honking cost position, which Leica would likely have to depreciate for nothing more than an outdated piece of history in Leica's young digital past.

Sure it would be a pity from a business standpoint, to waste this precious money just for those outdated experimental cameras, we first brought to market.

We actually would love all the internet chatter about this issue to disappear and those troublesome M8 camera's just to vanish in a puff of air.

 

This is not going to happen.

Leica has an obligation - invest in a reasonable service solution, that will cost an owner of a Leica M8 nothing more than a reasonable repair bill for a display exchange (no, that would not be 800 EUR) and eat those costs.

 

Heck, you can even break down this loss and raise the next digital M's price on the projected sale of 20.000 − 50.000 units and have all involved people happy, investors, engineers, marketing and very especially all M8 owners with or without broken LCD.

If indeed the monetary investment is so large, that giving away refurbished M9 bodies at production cost value to involved M8 owners has close to or less negative impact in the balance sheet, than the heck design an exchange/ upgrade program around this solution!

 

Is this so difficult to see?

 

I manage a small company. Would one of my products suffer from a similar issue, that would be, what I would do … making sure, MY FAULT will not become an issue of MY CUSTOMER. I have the obligation, that my customers have absolutely zero negative experience.

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HP32S II here, made in 1987, in use daily since early 90's - can't break. Best calculator ever.

 

I indeed intended, to use my M8.2 in a very similar fashion - it's fantastic in use, has the same focussing experience, as my other M cameras, fits the same lenses and on top of that has some unique perks, no other Leica M to date has, making it uniquely useful.

 

I don't get all this stupid talk about it being a bad product, outdated camera, etc …

 

If somebody would come along and offer me money and the latest and greatest calculator to snag away my HP, I would be shocked, insulted and astonished, asking "Are you nuts?"

 

Leica doesn't do the right thing in this affair so far. The taken reaction was mandatory, the execution and especially the communication in this regard looks clumsy.

It is not the message, M8 owners want to hear - they, as many people, who bought a Leica product simply want to have a warm feeling, that the manufacturer will take care of their issues and not to worry about it.

 

The opposite has happened - many M8 owners and potential starters into the Leica M system (that includes many potential first Leica customers) will have genuine worries and think twice before making decisions.

 

This is absolutely wrong from a marketing standpoint, absolutely.

 

Sure it makes technically no sense, to freeze valuable company liquidity into a big honking cost position, which Leica would likely have to depreciate for nothing more than an outdated piece of history in Leica's young digital past.

Sure it would be a pity from a business standpoint, to waste this precious money just for those outdated experimental cameras, we first brought to market.

We actually would love all the internet chatter about this issue to disappear and those troublesome M8 camera's just to vanish in a puff of air.

 

This is not going to happen.

Leica has an obligation - invest in a reasonable service solution, that will cost an owner of a Leica M8 nothing more than a reasonable repair bill for a display exchange (no, that would not be 800 EUR) and eat those costs.

 

Heck, you can even break down this loss and raise the next digital M's price on the projected sale of 20.000 − 50.000 units and have all involved people happy, investors, engineers, marketing and very especially all M8 owners with or without broken LCD.

If indeed the monetary investment is so large, that giving away refurbished M9 bodies at production cost value to involved M8 owners has close to or less negative impact in the balance sheet, than the heck design an exchange/ upgrade program around this solution!

 

Is this so difficult to see?

 

I manage a small company. Would one of my products suffer from a similar issue, that would be, what I would do … making sure, MY FAULT will not become an issue of MY CUSTOMER. I have the obligation, that my customers have absolutely zero negative experience.

 

see post #15 above..lets start an I love my HP32-SII thread in Barnack's Bar:rolleyes:

 

Seriously though , I completely agree.

You've obviously seen my last post #556 in the Lifetime service... NOT thread

 

With this shit storm raging it looks like Leica may need to rethink this. I'm starting to think that they should just order a supply of sensors, bear the cost, and protect their reputation.

 

Maintain the Rage:mad:

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