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Stefan Daniel

Serviceability M8 & M8.2 displays

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I count four posters in this thread who have expressed their intention to join a buyers' boycott. On the German side the interest in this matter is zero. I'm not convinced this will sink the M10.

 

I also don't see any meaningful conclusions to be drawn regarding a camera that has yet to be released. And the threat of an M10 boycott seems an equal waste of time.

 

I am somewhat concerned, however, about various posts I've seen on this forum and elsewhere from potential new Leica customers who saw the M8 as an entry point to Leica or to the M system in particular, but who now are turned off, and turning to other brands.

 

If Leica is to expand its market share as stated, then attracting new buyers at all price points seems key over the longer term. No data to suggest this is more than noise at this point, but any trend in this direction would not be a good thing.

 

Jeff

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I honestly don't understand the problem. Should the screen on my M8 fail, I would accept the upgrade, and as I have no use for a second M9, I'd put it -new, unopened box and full guaranty- on e-bay and happily pocket the profit.

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... Maybe try doing a little less apologizing then.

Resorting to ad hominem comments? Oh dear.

 

Since you've laid the accusation I'll clarify: I offer no apology for Leica but I am prepared to believe what Stephan Daniel has written; if that's taken as apologising then we'll have to agree to differ. I'm also not prepared to join the hoard that's baying for Leica's blood, which sounds very much like 'if you're not with us your against us'. I'll continue to happily hold the middle ground regardless.

 

Just so as you're clear, I'm not happy about M8's being bricked if their LCD fails catastrophically but I also don't see it as the end of the world. I think that there are more important things to worry about.

 

Pete.

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Yes, Pete, but perhaps one message to Leica from this thread is that they should review their business practices. They may have been let down by a supplier (or got into a scrap with Hasselblad with the DMR) but their attitude seems to be to pass on the cost of that failure to the end-user.

 

Even if they do nothing further for the M8, this situation should at least have forced them to take a hard look at the M9 and future products. That's why I'd like to see an assured service life as part of the product specification.

Mark,

 

I don't disagree with what you've written and I'd be surprised if Leica hadn't got the message from this thread. Leica's already stated that it's putting measures in place to prevent a similar occurrence with the M9 and yet, without even knowing what those measures are, some members are outright condemning Leica and presuming that M9's will be irreparable in the short term. That just seems unreasonable to me.

 

Pete.

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This thread is now officially beyond parody. I cannot believe what I am reading.

 

Indeed. The same stuff in and out, over and over. Even a sh*t eating dog eventually gets sick of it.

Edited by pico

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Arguing with a disgruntled camera owner is like wrestling with a pig in shit. After a while you realize the pig likes it.

 

I can see both sides in this one. It just seemed like the old joke was appropriate albeit in modified form

 

Enjoy the weekend everyone:)

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I honestly don't understand the problem. Should the screen on my M8 fail, I would accept the upgrade, and as I have no use for a second M9, I'd put it -new, unopened box and full guaranty- on e-bay and happily pocket the profit.

Lucky you (us). And what would you do if you had this very M8 as sole rangefinder and no money enough for the "forced upgrade solution"?

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Lucky you (us). And what would you do if you had this very M8 as sole rangefinder and no money enough for the "forced upgrade solution"?

 

Of course I cannot speak for Jaap, but if I were unable to pay for an upgrade I would return to my day-job as a dentist, pull the plug on the vitalometer so that teeth test dead and sell 'em all root canals. And if the patients couldn't afford the procedure, I'd tell 'em to sell their Leicas, or put their spouse on the street to turn tricks and sell dope. And when I got rich I'd come here and make silly statements that allude to being wealthy and wonder why anyone would object.

.

Edited by pico

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Lucky you (us). And what would you do if you had this very M8 as sole rangefinder and no money enough for the "forced upgrade solution"?

I'd use the profit from selling off my new M9 to buy a nice used M8 again, or if so inclined any other camera that caught my fancy.

 

@ Pico: it seems my ethics are a bit more robust than yours...

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I honestly don't understand the problem. Should the screen on my M8 fail, I would accept the upgrade, and as I have no use for a second M9, I'd put it -new, unopened box and full guaranty- on e-bay and happily pocket the profit.

 

Then you'd have some money but no camera. Not every M8 owner has a convenient spare M9.

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See my post above, Andy. The destination of the money is a free choice, and may well be another M8. Not every M8 owner wants an M9.

The profit does not have to be that high either, as one needs to consider the money lost on the repair of the LCD, if that were possible. I would say there is a fair chance of getting the best of the deal.

 

Having said that, it is a bit sad that one should have to go to all this trouble. And the risk of the transaction is on the user. I still think a straight buy-back by Leica would have been more elegant and more acceptable to some.

My post was more about a practical solution to an existing situation.

 

But we have been here before....

Edited by jaapv

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You mean if you decide not to get another M8? Well, there is a slew of affordable cameras that take M lenses nowadays, so that would be a choice again.

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Of course I cannot speak for Jaap, but if I were unable to pay for an upgrade I would return to my day-job as a dentist, pull the plug on the vitalometer so that teeth test dead and sell 'em all root canals. And if the patients couldn't afford the procedure, I'd tell 'em to sell their Leicas, or put their spouse on the street to turn tricks and sell dope. And when I got rich I'd come here and make silly statements that allude to being wealthy and wonder why anyone would object..

I see.

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yes I bought my M8 recently....I think enough of you have reminded me over the past few weeks....unfortunately.

I'm not a fatalist nor full of paranoia....I will use it to full extent....if it breaks, well I'll deal with that when it comes...

 

How recently you bought your M8 is relevant because you bought it in full knowledge of this situation. I assume you weighed the cost and the risk and thought it was worthwhile.

 

The issue being discussed in this thread, is that those of us who bought the camera from Leica while it was still their flagship model with "decades" of service ahead of it (and when Leica was still insisting that a full-frame M was a physical impossibility, incidentally) did not have access to all the information. That's the issue that's being debated.

 

Now you can come onto the thread and make as many oafish and sarcastic remarks as you wish about those of us that bought the M8 earlier - that is indeed your prerogative. If I were in your position I would at least have the good grace to keep my input polite.

 

I count four posters in this thread who have expressed their intention to join a buyers' boycott.

 

A boycott is a ridiculous and counterproductive idea - a very very small minority are so embittered by this event that they want Leica to actually fail. However, I'd say there are very many more people engaged in the issue than you seem to be suggesting - the combined views for the discussion on this sub-forum alone are currently around 38,000+, and I've seen you battling indefatigably for Leica on threads discussing the issue on at least one other forum.

 

I can see that Stefan Daniel's statement did manage to achieve its objective of isolating M8 owners from the more recent M9 customers. I'm not confident, as others seem to be, that the M9 won't be thrown under the bus in exactly the same way as the M8 and the DMR in the not too distant future.

 

The reason there's so much sadness and even bitterness in this thread is that many of us are disappointed that Leica are not living up to the high standards that we expected and hoped for. In this sense, I'd say the Leica apologists are doing the company a long-term disservice.

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While this debate is not likely to damage Leica to the point of going out of business, it is perfectly possible that some people who would have bought an M8 will not do so now because of all the argument in here. This will, of course, affect the used M8 market such that by the time someone's LCD actually stops working the street price for a used M8 might be much lower than the offered update and - perhaps - even less than any repair work might have cost. How fortunate.

 

I find it touching to see how members who mention elsewhere how many cameras they own or how often they have changed their gear take the side of those chaps whose only camera fails. For symmetry, I also share the joy of those other chaps (and gals) who will find a later model affordable on account of the upgrade offer.

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(... ) I'm not confident (...) that the M9 won't be thrown under the bus in exactly the same way as the M8 and the DMR (...)

 

I do not understand what exactly you mean by the phrase "throwing under the bus". I would associate that with an action which was intentional and without need, perhaps with a bit of spite. Would you mind elaborating this a bit, please?

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For symmetry, I also share the joy of those other chaps (and gals) who will find a later model affordable on account of the upgrade offer.

 

Let's be clear, the upgrade offer is not that great. The price of M9 and M9-Ps is falling anyway and in addition to the upgrade cost, the user is forced to write-off the residual value of their M8.

 

In the days when I ran my business, we occasionally had problems where, for myriad reasons, we did not meet the customer's reasonable expectations. I would always bend over backwards to do right by the customer, whether in the form of 100% refunds, free training or support, replacement account managers or whatever.

 

The secret is to act with sincerity and to act quickly without regard for the bottom line. The customer likes the rapid decisive response and you retain that customer's loyalty.

 

There was one time where a trainer failed to show up at a customer for a course because he double booked himself and hadn't bothered to tell them until they called him to find out where he was. Within a day, I agreed to pay for the travel and subsistence for their people, an agreed day rate for their wasted time and give them the course from another trainer free-of-charge. About £12k which I clawed back from the trainer's profit share.

 

Leica might think their M9 upgrade scheme is attractive. I do not. It's mean, penny pinching and leaves those who cannot afford it out in the cold.

 

Pulling teeth in the Netherlands may give you wealth beyond the dreams of avarice but I was struck by Edmond's posts - him of the marvellous Noctilux images - that, right now, he can't afford to have his lens hood replaced. Not every Leica user has a barrel of cash to fall back on.

Edited by pop

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