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Stefan Daniel

Serviceability M8 & M8.2 displays

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...3. In the special case of the M8, Leica should retain the M9 upgrade offer but supplement it with a lower cost alternative where Leica will obtain used parts from used M8s to keep broken M8s working. Users would have to accept that replacement parts might be used, pay a lower price and receive a shorter repair warranty...

The way Leica will get spare parts to fix dead LCDs is their buiseness IMO but otherwise i agree 100%.

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As a long term Leica user, starting with an M2 in the 70s and currently using an M8, I've been fortunate enough to own quite a lot of different Leicas in my time, some of which I still have, but I'm afraid the 8 will probably be my last Leica, I was saving for an M9, but not now:(

I really do wish someone else would bring out a digital rangefinder.

Ron.

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Plus one

 

As a long term Leica user, starting with an M2 in the 70s and currently using an M8, I've been fortunate enough to own quite a lot of different Leicas in my time, some of which I still have, but I'm afraid the 8 will probably be my last Leica, I was saving for an M9, but not now:(

I really do wish someone else would bring out a digital rangefinder.

Ron.

 

Kinda sums-up where Leica has left us. No further communication means that they have their commitment to us M8 users and we are left out in the cold.

 

Personally, I hope they fall flat on their face with the M1o

 

I have been looking at the Fuji x1-pro.

Edited by stonearabiapix

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What Leica really need is some competition to shake them from their lethargy. If we were able to buy a rangefinder camera from another vendor which worked with M glass, I suspect a number of us would.

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What Leica really need is some competition to shake them from their lethargy. If we were able to buy a rangefinder camera from another vendor which worked with M glass, I suspect a number of us would.

 

I would not, because even if it were less expensive, I could not be sure that I would be getting an instrument that would have the durability and 'lifetime of service' that comes with the ......ahhhhhh.... never mind.

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Maybe he didn't sugar-coat it as much as you'd like, but I believe the sentiment is shared by many. Leica needs to be reminded that they don't walk on water, especially now that they are trying to expand their customer base beyond the old guard of unwavering loyalism. There are a lot more M9 owners out there than M8 owners, and I for one am not reassured in the least by this part of Mr. Daniel's statement (I added bold for emphasis):

 

For the M9 as for all our products, we are taking measures that we are able to service the camera for a period of at least ten years after production will stop. In the case that (especially electronic-) parts are no longer available, we will offer an upgrade program.

 

Stefan Daniel, Director Product Management

 

Basically it says that what we are doing to M8 owners we are prepared to do to M9 owners in turn as well. Reported on this forum alone there were two more cracked sensors last month and one so far this month. Serial numbers are all over the place, including very recent. Leica can claim that all the cracked sensors have been reported on this forum, but frankly I'm more apt to believe that's also "puff" as some put it euphemistically. And there is no indication that sensors are being replaced with revised, non-cracking ones, so even if a sensor is replaced there's no assurance it won't crack again. Sensors are a lot more expensive for Leica to stock than LCD displays, and there are a lot more M9s sold than M8s so I'm quite skeptical that they have a huge pile of them. Clearly Leica did not anticipate the need for so many replacement sensors, any more than they anticipated so many M8 LCDs would be needed, so why should we not draw parallels?

 

Clearly if the market rolls over for the "upgrade solution" on the M8, then Leica can conclude it will work with the M9 as well. Since it's clear by now that reasoned appeals to ethics and accountability have not brought about an equitable solution, it does seem like the only thing that might shake them out of their complacency is if people vote with their wallets.

Edited by bocaburger

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By wishing for the M10 to fail would you prefer this scenario?

 

M10 fails ---> Leica folds ---> No cameras or lenses can be serviced by Leica.

 

You can argue till you're blue in the face whether it would happen that way but surely you must be able to see that wishing Leica ill is a short-termist and detrimental approach.

 

Pete.

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By wishing for the M10 to fail would you prefer this scenario?

 

M10 fails ---> Leica folds ---> No cameras or lenses can be serviced by Leica.

 

You can argue till you're blue in the face whether it would happen that way but surely you must be able to see that wishing Leica ill is a short-termist and detrimental approach.

 

Pete.

 

LOL...totally agree.

 

maybe they think if the M10 fails, Leica will wonder "how did this happen?" and then they'll say "oh yeah, those bitter comments on the L-Forum must have caused this to happen!!!" and so they will exchange everyone's M8s, M8.2s, M9s, M9Ps all for M9 Titanium Editions......with a special guarantee that will proclaim "This Camera Shall Never Break".

 

Leica will also buy you ice cream every single day...in whichever flavour you most desire. They will also buy you dinner once in a while-----but only on bad days of course...when you really need it most!!!

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What Leica really need is some competition to shake them from their lethargy. If we were able to buy a rangefinder camera from another vendor which worked with M glass, I suspect a number of us would.

 

This is true, the lack of any real competition is a problem. They have competition from other lens manufacturers and have no doubt issued new designs and ranges to keep their edge. Plenty of us are happy with our Voigtlander and Zeiss lenses.

 

Nothing can match the feel of a film M camera, but that Leica feel doesn't quite translate so well to their digital bodies IMHO. If Zeiss were to release a digital rangefinder it would be interesting to see how it would be received.

 

The Epson sold very well, many Leica users bought them, even though clearly not up to Leica quality (I'm talking about build quality and materials). But unless something appears at Photokina I doubt we'll see another comparable body in the future - more EVIL bodies that can take M lenses, from other manufacturers, but not another rangefinder.

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..."oh yeah, those bitter comments on the L-Forum must have caused this to happen!!!" and so they will exchange everyone's M8s, M8.2s, M9s, M9Ps all for M9 Titanium Editions......with a special guarantee that will proclaim "This Camera Shall Never Break".

 

Leica will also buy you ice cream every single day...in whichever flavour you most desire. They will also buy you dinner once in a while-----but only on bad days of course...when you really need it most!!!

 

In what way is this a constructive contribution to the legitimate concerns of M8 owners who bought a camera which they expected to be fully supported for more than the (less than) three years since the model was discontinued? Are these puerile scenarios really the best you can do?

 

You bought your used M8 recently - in fact, after the concerns with the LCD were already known - so how about easing-up on the sarcasm, and thinking a bit about the people who bought from Leica when the company was promising "decades" of service.

 

(As a sidenote - I really hope Leica is around for a long while. They make the best 35mm film cameras, and the lenses are beyond compare. They're not adapting well to the digital world yet - in my opinion - but they still need to learn that their greatest asset is the incredible loyalty of their customers)

Edited by plasticman

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In what way is this a constructive contribution to the legitimate concerns of M8 owners who bought a camera which they expected to be fully supported for more than the (less than) three years since the model was discontinued? Are these puerile scenarios really the best you can do?

 

You bought your used M8 recently - in fact, after the concerns with the LCD were already known - so how about easing-up on the sarcasm, and thinking a bit about the people who bought from Leica when the company was promising "decades" of service.

 

(As a sidenote - I really hope Leica is around for a long while. They make the best 35mm film cameras, and the lenses are beyond compare. They're not adapting well to the digital world yet - in my opinion - but they still need to learn that their greatest asset is the incredible loyalty of their customers)

 

I don't wish the company to fail like others here do....to me that is an immature and closed minded "wish" upon a company just because they don't meet some grandiose expectations.

 

yes I bought my M8 recently....I think enough of you have reminded me over the past few weeks....unfortunately.

 

I'm not a fatalist nor full of paranoia....I will use it to full extent....if it breaks, well I'll deal with that when it comes....

 

a ridiculous response is expected after a ridiculous statement....

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By wishing for the M10 to fail would you prefer this scenario?

 

M10 fails ---> Leica folds ---> No cameras or lenses can be serviced by Leica.

 

You can argue till you're blue in the face whether it would happen that way but surely you must be able to see that wishing Leica ill is a short-termist and detrimental approach.

 

Pete.

 

If Leica is so arrogant and stubborn that they would stand with their arms folded and let their ship sink when all it would take to turn M10 sales around would be to offer an equitable solution for the M8 and a written guarantee (not as Mark so aptly calls it "weasel words") to M9 (and M10) owners that the cameras will be fully repairable for 10 years post-production, then they really have no business in business, especially not selling $8000+ cameras.

 

If Leica were to fold, yes, no current cameras will be serviced. But neither will any future cameras be sold to believing customers under the false promise of enduring support.

 

If Leica were to fold, it will be the direct consequence of their own doing. Not the result of ill-wishes.

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If Leica is so arrogant and stubborn that they would stand with their arms folded and let their ship sink when all it would take to turn M10 sales around would be to offer an equitable solution for the M8 ...

Your powers of clairvoyance are clearly better than mine if you're able to determine the reason for failure of a camera that hasn't even been launched and is currently vapourware.

 

As an M8 owner who also paid for the upgrade, I'm tiring of being told how outraged I should be and how sorry people are for my plight. I find it patronising and self-serving.

 

I'm also tiring of the insinuations about conspiracies within Leica to short-change customers by making cameras irreparable three years after the discontinuance of the line. I don't think it's so and I'm prepared to give Leica the benefit of the doubt that it has been unavoidably let down by a supplier. It happens. I don't class myself as a Leica apologist or fan-boy I class myself as an independent customer with an objective view of their operations. Yes, there are things about the company, its operation and its products that don't please me but there are an awful lot more things that do.

 

Pete.

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Your powers of clairvoyance are clearly better than mine if you're able to determine the reason for failure of a camera that hasn't even been launched and is currently vapourware.

 

No doubt there are many possible reasons why the M10 might fail. The only one germaine to this discussion is Leica kissing off their customers.

 

As an M8 owner who also paid for the upgrade, I'm tiring of being told how outraged I should be and how sorry people are for my plight. I find it patronising and self-serving.

 

Then I have a great and Leica-esque solution: from now on whenever anyone expresses solidarity with the plight of M8 owners, simply consider yourself excluded.

 

I'm also tiring of the insinuations about conspiracies within Leica to short-change customers by making cameras irreparable three years after the discontinuance of the line. I don't think it's so and I'm prepared to give Leica the benefit of the doubt that it has been unavoidably let down by a supplier.

 

I have never suggested that Leica did this deliberately, or that they have control over their suppliers. They do however have control over how they handle such happenstances, and in this case they are choosing to make a profit on the backs of unfortunate customers. I don't mean you, because you're happy with how Leica treated you. I'm talking about everyone else who is un-happy.

 

I don't class myself as a Leica apologist

 

Maybe try doing a little less apologizing then.

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I count four posters in this thread who have expressed their intention to join a buyers' boycott. On the German side the interest in this matter is zero. I'm not convinced this will sink the M10.

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Yes, there are things about the company, its operation and its products that don't please me but there are an awful lot more things that do.

 

Yes, Pete, but perhaps one message to Leica from this thread is that they should review their business practices. They may have been let down by a supplier (or got into a scrap with Hasselblad with the DMR) but their attitude seems to be to pass on the cost of that failure to the end-user.

 

Even if they do nothing further for the M8, this situation should at least have forced them to take a hard look at the M9 and future products. That's why I'd like to see an assured service life as part of the product specification.

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I count four posters in this thread who have expressed their intention to join a buyers' boycott. On the German side the interest in this matter is zero. I'm not convinced this will sink the M10.

 

I certainly don't want the M10 or Leica to sink. In fact as a long-time Leica user it pains me to think it would have to take such a drastic measure as a buyers' boycott to convince Leica to stop taking customer loyalty for granted. Just because a small number of posters on this forum expressed their intention to boycott the M10 doesn't mean they are the only ones. I can see why some might not make their intentions public. And then there are the tens of thousands of Leica users who are either not members of the forum, or choose to be lurkers. And the untold thousands of potential M10 buyers who read of this issue.

 

But you may very well be right. Leica has managed to stay afloat despite a litany of blunders and missteps going back decades, so I'm also not convinced this latest debacle will cause them to change their spots.

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