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Stefan Daniel

Serviceability M8 & M8.2 displays

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Peter, credit insurance is my game! ..........

 

.........I very rarely see an administrator or new owner agreeing to honour the debts racked up by the business. ....................

 

Sorry for the selective quoting James, but you're highlighting a large part of the problem here.

 

We talk about ten-year time-frames but as you know, very few smallish companies are a really good bet for ten years.

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Sorry for the selective quoting James, but you're highlighting a large part of the problem here.

 

We talk about ten-year time-frames but as you know, very few smallish companies are a really good bet for ten years.

 

I think you're missing the point. Businesses fail but more often than not they actually continue in one form or another. I specialise in SME's, it's true that a large % of start-ups fail, but usually within the first 3 years.

 

Claims for insolvency are all over the place at present, typically long standing 'safe' ones are causing the claims.

 

All of this is irrelevant however, as we don't know who Leica buy parts from, and simply the size of the businesses isn't really a factor in determining how long Leica can support a camera for.

 

If anyone needs credit insurance though....

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..........................

 

All of this is irrelevant however, as we don't know who Leica buy parts from, and simply the size of the businesses isn't really a factor in determining how long Leica can support a camera for.

 

....

 

Well, being small does close off a few possibilities. Its not unknown for large companies to buy key suppliers lock stock and barrel for example, or to award long-term contracts with minimum purchase volumes that more or less ensure the supplier's trading ability.

 

But I agree we know none of this regarding Leica. Which is why, again, I'm reluctant to wholeheartedly support demands for things that we don't know whether they're capable of delivering, or at what price.

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If anyone needs credit insurance though....

 

If anyone wants to get into credit-default swaps...

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... snipped

 

Henny Penny "the chook" is a practically undesguised insult of M8 owners.

Great public relation, Erl!

 

If it meant as an answer to Mark insulting the Leica team today, here's the thread about to derail again.

Carry on that way, further attempts expected but

 

the facts remain unchanged.

 

Untill Leica takes their M8 customers seriously, reflecting upon how they will treat potential M9 buyers and those of future models, too, untill then I prefer to wait and see before investing into new products of this brand.

 

Read it the way you want, but you risk being wrong.

 

How many M8's do you own?

I own two!

One did fail and I was told, after the repair that it may or may not keep working. (Repairer covering themselves)

It has kept working and I accept the risk. Life is a risk.

 

Now if you feel insulted, you have the problem, not me, because none was intended. My intention was to be pragmatic about a reality and move on. The example I used was me, but changed the name to add a bit of humour. I realize the world does not always appreciate "Aussie Humour". Well that's tough.

 

Life is a reality and the reality is my M8's have been working for 6+ years now. Not too bad for digicams I understand.

 

As for the price I paid. Yeah, probably too much, but I got what I wanted at the time. That happens in all spheres of life, not just photography.

Edited by erl

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I admire your ability to keep a positive attitude Erl. But I hope you can appreciate we aren't fools who don't share your capacity for circumspection in this instance. I think I have a very pragmatic grasp of the paradigm of modern-day electronics. I won't be upset if my $800 laptop isn't serviceable 3 years from the time it's discontinued, and I'm forced to upgrade. I won't be upset if my $900 TV isn't serviceable 3 years from the time it's discontinued, and I'm forced to upgrade. I won't even be upset if my $1000 camera isn't serviceable 3 years from the time it's discontinued, and I'm forced to upgrade. However I will be very upset...and rightly so...if my $5000-$6000-$8000+ camera isn't serviceable 3 years after it ceases production, and I'm forced to upgrade.

 

I am with you 100% that things are what they are and one should move on. In my case, it won't be with another Leica, at least until I see solid evidence they've either decided to buck the disposable trend with proper long-term support; or lower their pricing to where disposability is more palatable.

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Bocaburger, I appreciate you have a somewhat different stance on this than I do and that is to be respected. I suppose a long time ago I learned not to measure everything in dollar terms. I never look at 'obsolete' gear and wonder what I can sell it for, but rather measure did I get value from using it. A bit like a holiday. You spend the money and never expect to get it back. Just enjoy it while it lasts. A side consequence of that is that I rarely sell any gear. I still have an initial investment of $100K in Hasselblad gear that I no longer need, but measure that it earned me far more that many times. It owes me nothing. Why sell it! On today's market it would return a mere fraction of that investment. At the end of the next week, both the camera and the money would be gone. Instead, I still have the camera.

 

I know this attitude does not sit well with everyone, it is just my coping technique when things like the M8 repair situation arises. Pragmatism. I can't influence the outcome so live with what does or does not happen.

Edited by erl

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I am with you 100% that things are what they are and one should move on. In my case, it won't be with another Leica, at least until I see solid evidence they've either decided to buck the disposable trend with proper long-term support; or lower their pricing to where disposability is more palatable.

The flaw in this argument is the generalization from a single instance to the perception that this is planned obsolescence.

I see this as an unfortunate accident due to circumstances beyond Leica's control and not as an indication that Leica has changed their policy of durability.

 

Any solid evidence can only be that you will see that the M9 is still serviceable ten years from now.

That is a long wait and still no guaranty that something like this will not happen to the M14. Or any other electronic appliance for that matter, regardless of price.

For the time being I choose to trust the statement of Mr Daniel that measures have been taken to prevent similar events in the future.

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My intention was to be pragmatic about a reality and move on. The example I used was me, but changed the name to add a bit of humour. I realize the world does not always appreciate "Aussie Humour". Well that's tough...

.

 

Seeing how Leica handles their supply problem for a very expensive product and let it become blank disregard of customer satisfaction, that does make many people be pragmatic and move on, Earl.

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The flaw in this argument is the generalization from a single instance to the perception that this is planned obsolescence.

I see this as an unfortunate accident due to circumstances beyond Leica's control and not as an indication that Leica has changed their policy of durability.

 

This perception isn't based on 'a single instance'. As Mark Norton pointed out, Leica doesn't have a great track record on supporting discontinued digital cameras.

 

We can only wait and see what happens to the general serviceability of the M8 in the future - I personally expect to see a wider range of issues that lead to the upgrade offer as time goes on.

 

The interesting datum then will be whether it takes another two or seven years before the M8 is no longer generally serviceable. The latter would be an acceptable time-span, the former would be a grave warning sign to anyone buying a Leica in the future.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the lesson learnt is that buying a Leica means budgeting at least double what the camera costs at purchase: this means one should be prepared to pay as much again within a five year period.

 

As for the M9, Stefan Daniel hasn't promised it will be serviceable for ten years, he said this:

 

"For the M9 as for all our products, we are taking measures that we are able to service the camera for a period of at least ten years after production will stop. In the case that (especially electronic-) parts are no longer available, we will offer an upgrade program."

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I'm moving back to my two trusted M6TTL 0.85 and slide film.

On a weather like today.

Have a good week-end everybody and quit quarreling!

 

Cheers,

Simon

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See you in seven years then

Ah- yes the DMR - I blame that one on Imacon - I won't be buying any Phase One backs

And yes - that is what Mr. Daniel said. Good enough for me

YMMV.

This perception isn't based on 'a single instance'. As Mark Norton pointed out, Leica doesn't have a great track record on supporting discontinued digital cameras.

 

We can only wait and see what happens to the general serviceability of the M8 in the future - I personally expect to see a wider range of issues that lead to the upgrade offer as time goes on.

 

The interesting datum then will be whether it takes another two or seven years before the M8 is no longer generally serviceable. The latter would be an acceptable time-span, the former would be a grave warning sign to anyone buying a Leica in the future.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the lesson learnt is that buying a Leica means budgeting at least double what the camera costs at purchase: this means one should be prepared to pay as much again within a five year period.

 

As for the M9, Stefan Daniel hasn't promised it will be serviceable for ten years, he said this:

 

"For the M9 as for all our products, we are taking measures that we are able to service the camera for a period of at least ten years after production will stop. In the case that (especially electronic-) parts are no longer available, we will offer an upgrade program."

Edited by jaapv

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Ah- yes the DMR - I blame that one on Imacon

 

Yep it's always someone else's fault.

 

And yes - that is what Mr. Daniel said. Good enough for me YMMV.

 

Indeed - not everyone is fine with a policy that replaces straightforward serviceability with a (very expensive) upgrade program.

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Yep it's always someone else's fault.

.

 

Knowing you, I was waiting for that one

 

And btw, five months ago Leica CS took my DMR apart, adjusted and checked everything, fitted a new bodyshell and returned it like new - all for the princely sum of zero Euro. That is their definition of "not supported"

 

 

 

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The flaw in this argument is the generalization from a single instance to the perception that this is planned obsolescence.

I see this as an unfortunate accident due to circumstances beyond Leica's control and not as an indication that Leica has changed their policy of durability.

 

.

 

I think the point many are making here is that it isn't really an accident. Nor "should" it have been out of Leica's control. But, if it is, in fact, an accident that is due to circumstances out of Leica's control, Leica's solution for the customers affected is a tough one to swallow for anyone who bought their Leica expecting a lifetime of service (or even 10 years of service).

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Knowing you, I was waiting for that one

 

And btw, five months ago Leica CS took my DMR apart, adjusted and checked everything, fitted a new bodyshell and returned it like new - all for the princely sum of zero Euro. That is their definition of "not supported"

 

Not really sure what that personal dig adds to your post, but to address the issue of service for the vast majority of Leica owners, I've read several of your accounts of princely treatment from Leica CS (free leather refits and free DMR maintenance, and so on). I must admit this was partly the reason I was annoyed that your suggestion for 'compensation' for affected M8 owners was so incredibly grudging. But the truth is, not everyone gets the same level of attention - quite understandable in one sense, as we're not all so prolific in our Leica purchases. When my M8 went back to Solms for an RF adjustment, I failed even to get a reply to my (very polite) mails. The upside is it came back perfectly aligned, and has remained so since.

While I love my M8, I feel no reason to excuse poor customer care - wherever it occurs.

Edited by plasticman

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Indeed - not everyone is fine with a policy that replaces straightforward serviceability with a (very expensive) upgrade program.

 

As it's far-fetched to think Leica has a limitless supply of M9s for exchange, at some point Leica will need to offer M8 owners (and M9 owners, if a part becomes unavailable, per Mr. Daniel's statement) upgrades to current models. If they do that for thousands off street price, it might sit better with owners. Right now it looks a bit like opportunism in the face of Leica having a stock of yet-unsold M9s two weeks from new model announcements.

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Not really sure what that personal dig adds to your post, but to address the issue of service for the vast majority of Leica owners, I've read several of your accounts of princely treatment from Leica CS (free leather refits and free DMR maintenance, and so on). I must admit this was partly the reason I was annoyed that your suggestion for 'compensation' for affected M8 owners was so incredibly grudging. But the truth is, not everyone gets the same level of attention - quite understandable in one sense, as we're not all so prolific in our Leica purchases. When my M8 went back to Solms for an RF adjustment, I failed even to get a reply to my (very polite) mails. The upside is it came back perfectly aligned, and has remained so since.

While I love my M8, I feel no reason to excuse poor customer care - wherever it occurs.

The covering letter was clear. No possibility to repair digital parts in the future - so no charge.Nothing personal there. As for responsibility - take credit take the blame. The nechanical parts of the DMR were Leica - they are still available. The electronics were Imacon - they have run out...

Edited by jaapv

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