Serviceability M8 & M8.2 displays

[M9reno]

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They were never meant to be 'throwaway' parts.

 

Rather, parts for a lifetime on a throwaway camera.

[jaapv]

1. buy a used one from a known dealer.

2. Why should one not sell goods with a declared fault?

Yes - we sure a screen costs in the order of 800 Euro. Why 1000?

1. How does one replace an M8? They are no longer made, and to buy a used M8 is to enter the cloud of uncertainty caused by a known problem.

 

 

 

2. Why should the M8 owner stoop to the insufferable behavior of selling a defective M8? If he is honest and admits that the particular M8 is damaged and cannot be repaired, then he suffers a justified great loss. Besides, he just enters into the vicious loop. See number 1, then repeat.

 

Are we certain that a repair of the screen is 800 euro or 1000 euro? And which is it?

 

Regardless, did not Leica suggest that they do not want to replace the LCD because they cannot be confident that the new parts are not also defective? More later.

 

 

I think you are misreading.

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[earleygallery]

Better to keep the broken M8 for spares, shutter, top/bottom plate, battery, etc.

[M9reno]

Imy learning is: don't buy new technology from Leica. Better to wait for the second, hopefully improved model.

 

No digital model from them will ever be, as they have claimed for their previous ones, "lifetime" products. So mine is: don't buy unless you are happy to buy again in ten years' time or less, more likely much less. Not much different from buying any other electronic item. Then again, Apple never tried to sell a computer, or Sony a TV, by claiming it was for a "lifetime", and charging accordingly.

[pico]

1. buy a used one from a known dealer.

2. Why should one not sell goods with a declared fault?

Yes - we sure a screen costs in the order of 800 Euro. Why 1000?

 

We know that some M8s are defective. To buy one from anyone is silly, a gamble, in my opinion.

 

One should declare a fault, if it is known, before selling. I did not write otherwise.

 

Finally, I think Leica said that it will not replace M8 LCDs because they are not confident that any remaining stock is good, or the stock has expired.

 

Re: 1000 from this where you wrote: "Your maximum risk is 1000 Euro being the price of a replacement M8"

 

Can one replace an M8 now?

[jaapv]

We know that some M8s are defective. To buy one from anyone is silly, a gamble, in my opinion.

 

One should declare a fault, if it is known, before selling. I did not write otherwise.

 

Finally, I think Leica said that it will not replace M8 LCDs because they are not confident that any remaining stock is good, or the stock has expired.

 

 

 

Can one replace an M8 now?

Yes - one can replace an used M8 by another used M8.

There is absolutely no evidence that M8s are more prone to problems nowadays than other used digital M cameras.

Did you miss the word "hypothetical' in the words "hypothetical repair"?

Edited August 29, 2012 by jaapv

[Jeff S]

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With Leica you never paid for a better quality of camera bodies.

 

Of course you did, or at least on the perception of better quality. Leica surely has been able to build in a price premium based on this aura. The only thing new is that now you know that was never true, at least regarding essential electronic components.

 

Whether the marketing language will change is another matter. And you can bet the prices won't go down unless the market conditions (not marketing conditions) change.

 

Jeff

[iedei]

I say this as a recent adopter to the M8 and someone who is in support of Leica.

 

The only thing i'm really puzzled by is WHY can the M8 not be serviced. It's just an LCD screen.....millions of electronics use LCD screens----in fact it is one of the most fundamental part of modern digital electronics. Surely there must be a way for the company to find an alternative. If the original screen is not made any more, then a solution should be worked out to integrate a different screen into the camera.

 

Fast forward 25 years from now....what are owners of M8s, M8.2s, M9s, M9ps, MMs, M10s going to do? This is a parts-supply issue rather than a reliability issue, IMO.

[menos I M6]

I am not satisfied with the outcome, as it looks now.

 

When I bought my first digital M, it has been in the knowledge, that I paid an immense amount of money - almost as much, as I paid for a brand new Nikon D3 - for a second hand, unknown Leica M8.2.

That has been a camera, back then very controversial in performance at the time, when I bought it (sensor and electronics development at that time had marched on a lot already).

 

The price, I was willing to pay for this adventure was just at the limit, what I was willing to pay, to try out the digital Leica M experience.

 

I got lucky - the M8.2 continues to today, to work.

The experience was worthwhile and I have bought many lenses (for way more each, than the amount paid for the M8.2) and a new M9.

I actually was prepared to add another full frame digital M in form of a new M Monochrom, once I travel back to Europe.

 

Hypothetical: if it would have had broken just after the dealer commitment would have expired and Leica would communicate, that I either are unfortunate, to live with a broken camera or pay a premium of several thousand EUR (but obviously more, than I paid for the M8.2) again, I would state with confidence, that my Leica experience would have been exactly terminated at that very point.

 

There are many, many young and old new owners of second hand M8 cameras joining these forums + many uncounted for, who stay out of the forums and prefer to use their time outside, taking pictures with their new second hand M8.

 

 

I wrote this earlier - the right way to do for a company as Leica with their remarkable corporate achievements over the last three years would be one thing:

 

- take this whole affair serious

- make 100% certain, that not one single customer (direct or indirect to Leica) is in no way negatively touched by this issue (a manufacturer, kindly asking the customer, to pay for being upsold to another product must NOT be the only option and should only be an additional direction, a customer might want to steer upon customers request)

- take the full economical responsibility to re-establish sufficient stock of the missing spare part and offer a repair in reasonable manners to the customer

 

It is not Leica's decision to make at which cost cap a repair of a product, belonging to a customer might be - it always must be the customer, who decides.

[M9reno]

I wrote this earlier - the right way to do for a company as Leica with their remarkable corporate achievements over the last three years would be one thing:

 

- take this whole affair serious

- make 100% certain, that not one single customer (direct or indirect to Leica) is in no way negatively touched by this issue (a manufacturer, kindly asking the customer, to pay for being upsold to another product must NOT be the only option and should only be an additional direction, a customer might want to steer upon customers request)

- take the full economical responsibility to re-establish sufficient stock of the missing spare part and offer a repair in reasonable manners to the customer

 

It is not Leica's decision to make at which cost cap a repair of a product, belonging to a customer might be - it always must be the customer, who decides.

 

I join you in wishing it were so. But it is not going to happen.

[Wolfgang Esslinger]

Of course you did, or at least on the perception of better quality. Leica surely has been able to build in a price premium based on this aura.

 

I agree. Perception, ie. image, is the important point. Image made a lot of people buy into Leica but luxury products find it sometimes (always?) difficult to fulfill the promises made or implied. That is my personal and very limited experience, of course, with 3 out of 3 luxury companies.

[jaques]

Firstly thankyou Mr Daniels for responding to this issue.

 

I would like to add one point if I may: even if the LCD's were in stock for the next decade: the current cost of having them replaced is almost nonviable.

 

As a resident of the Oceania I feel our access to Leica service is less certain than in Europe and the USA, and that the cost of service including transportation can be very high.

 

I would take this opportunity to note that I personally would feel more secure about future Leica purchases if I felt assured that the service I would get in the case of failure or damage would be Worlds Best.

 

For me this definitely includes cost effectiveness of repair. Replacing a simple part like an LCD screen should not cost $800 Euro. If cameras are not repaired because the cost of repair is unjustifiable given the (low) market value of the camera: this situation itself puts further downward pressure on the product value.

 

If lower service/repair charges require a new repair facility in the Asia region I would be very happy to hear that. Why not open one in Australia?

 

For me the Leica advertising concerning reliability and long product life was an important factor in making my M9 purchases. Even with service support over the next decade- it seems that within a few years after release- the cost of repairing damage to these cameras at current pricing would outweigh the commercial viability of repairing them.

 

I believe there may be many other Leica M digital owners like myself, for whom the camera purchase was a very significant financial decision. If repairs are unavailable or un-economical such Leica owners may be priced out of the brand. Such buyers may not have factored and may not be able to afford the ongoing running costs of owning Leica gear... I fear I may be one of them.

 

here is a scenario:

 

I am student I own an M8 which I saved hard for. I have had it 3 months... My first Leica! I am in love. My dog knocks it off a table! The 1965 Summicron is undamaged- just another nick on the chrome BUT the LCD is smashed. I only have 1000 dollars to spare currently:

 

a) I contact Leica for a repair. It cannot be repaired. I am offered a new m9 for $3500. This is impossible for me. Rent must be paid after all.. I sell the broken m8 my Leica lens- and buy a Fuji .

 

I contact Leica and they offer to repair the camera for $800 Euro (and my local authorised service agent adds another $300 AUD onto that amount). Faced with an 1100 + Euro repair quote I sadly but rationally decide to sell the camera and lens and Buy a Nikon.

 

c) I contact Leica and they offer to repair the LCD for 300 USD (total cost) with a warranty on the LCD- or $550 with a full CLA and 12 month limited warranty for the camera. I am overjoyed and lock the dog outside from now on. Years later I buy an M12... and give the still working trusty, true 'enduring in value' Leica M8 to my daughter. Her first Leica!

 

I know in this scenario replacement of the LCD is seemingly impossible... Call it a 2009 M9 in 2014 if needs be...

 

In scenarios a, and b, my experience in owning Leica has been akin to that expensive and painful lesson of "buying a Lemon" car.

 

 

Whatever the market demographic all Leica users will respond very warmly to enhanced service and affordable repairs. Nothing can buy goodwill like a good experience getting a broken product fixed- and this can be magnified tenfold if the price of the repair is actually lower than feared.... People generally have amazing goodwill dealing with product failures if they are sorted out efficiently and as painlessly as possible... Conversely even a one really bad service experiences can ruin a lifetime of support for a brand.

 

In the case of Leica I think I could go as far as saying that their are people who would almost die for the company- that is how strong their attachment is. They would defend Solms with pitchforks if necessary: such is the love of the historical Brand and all its wonderful history. It would be a shame if the legend of 'Leica Service' were to become just that: a legend...

 

My local camera repairman trained and worked at Leica in the microscope department. Years before that and as a child he vividly remembers visiting Solms in the late 1950's with his father. They were treated to a tour of the factory and his fathers M3 was serviced on the spot: for free of course. Some 50 years later he relates the story to me: almost with a tear in his eye, as he cleaned my M9 CMOS sensor- and vintage 50 summilux with the inestimable aid of his Leitz Stereo-Microscope... The 'Leica' magic has not worn off yet...

 

thankyou for you time-

Edited August 29, 2012 by jaques

[pico]

Yes - one can replace an used M8 by another used M8.

There is absolutely no evidence that M8s are more prone to problems nowadays than other used digital M cameras.

 

The essence concerns the fundamental flaw that must be repaired if one wants to use the flawed LCD in any way. Who cares what other digital cameras are? The pertinent issue is within the word LEICA.

 

Did you miss the word "hypothetical' in the words "hypothetical repair"?

 

Hypothetical means "make believe"? Sorry. I am looking for hard metrics. For one, we do not know how many M8 LCDs have failed, or how may are likely to fail due to manufacturing errors.

[Realist_classic]

I join you in wishing it were so. But it is not going to happen.

 

I'm still holding out hope that Leica's policy on this pressing matter is still fluid and will be subject to continual refinement over the next few weeks.

[pico]

Regarding Stefan Daniel's post here of August 29, 2012 (03:15)

 

The only substance in his post regarding M8 displays -

Stephan Daniel: "In the case that […] parts are no longer available, we will offer an upgrade program. […] Please contact your local Leica Customer Care for details should you have concerns with your M8/ M8.2 display."

 

Note that we do not know whether Leica has any replacement LCDs for the M8, therefore person who has a damaged LCD due to damage for which the is responsible might not be able to have it repaired so his only recourse is an M9 upgrade, at best! We do not know yet.

 

Neither do we know how much an upgrade might cost. Not even an estimate. No real remedy is calculable without going to one's local Leica Customer Care, wherever that is. (Daniel makes it sound like going there is just a step down the street.)

 

So, in his post Herr Daniel has really not given effected M8 consumers any real assurance.

 

HERE is an idea. In the case (probably quite few) of defective M8 LCD displays, Leica should upgrade to an M9 at factory cost minus an amount to compensate for the possibility that the M8 owner really prefers an M8.

 

If Leica finds this an unacceptable proposition then, of course, we can expect a different offer, or none.

 

Perhaps the majority stock holder would consider paying the difference himself, or the creation of a self-insured scheme with a partner so that Leica can make a sufficient remedy for the very few M8 owners in question.

 

An aside: It is presumptuous for anyone to think that an 'upgrade' to a newer model is going to be a good deal. A few people here say they prefer the rendering of the M8 to the M9. Another factor is the possibility that the next Leica will be inferior to the current M9, for example. What if the M10 is built to be a more affordable camera and it lacks certain M9 features - like the traditional RF, or what if the body is composite rather than cast alloy and brass?

[jaapv]

So if your Yaris breaks down and cannot be repaired for some reason Toyota owes you a Lexus for free?

[Rona!d]

So if your Yaris breaks down and cannot be repaired for some reason Toyota owes you a Lexus for free?

 

No! That offer would be a big disadvantage for the customer. Toyota also has to pay higher insurance and gas for a lifetime (ah, let´s say at least for the next 30 years) if they offer a new Lexus for an old Yaris!

Same with Leicas, the M9 files are larger, the camera maker should also offer a free upgrade in hardware and software to compensate his fault!

[jaapv]

:D

[Rona!d]

Apologize my black humor, this is a serious problem and I´m happy that I never thought a digital camera can be serviced longer than 3-4 years when it comes to certain 3rd party parts.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pico]

So if your Yaris breaks down and cannot be repaired for some reason Toyota owes you a Lexus for free?

 

Of course, such overstatement must be jest. It is certainly not pertinent to this discussion.

 

For what it is worth, some years ago we had a case in Toyota where the V6 experienced a sudden and complete loss of oil due to a failed main oil line. There was a certain location on the assembly line for a brief time when the wrong fitting was used. It effected only about 400 cars. Toyota replaced the engines for each customer right away. Free, of course.

 

Why should Leica not offer the same?

Edited August 29, 2012 by pico