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Winding shutter past 40 and last frame

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Hello,

 

It's my first post on the forum, so a quick introduction: I live in Amsterdam and I'm the very proud owner of an M6 and an M3, the latter recently acquired seemingly in tip-top shape, serial 1 034 xxx.

 

I've discovered a strange issue though, that I've yet to find a reference to on the forum or the web at large: it seems I can wind the shutter and shoot without encountering any resistance well past the frame 40 (where the counter stops). This of course is with 36 positions film loaded properly (Ilford XP2 and HP5+), as the two red dots keep turning until about frame 36-7 or so. After that, the dots no longer turn, but the shutter winds/cocks and shoots without issues, the frame advances to 40 and the stops, and I can still keep going at it.

Miffed, I switch to R and rewind the film back into the canister. I can clearly hear the film moving inside, and finally there's a slight tension (but just ever so slight) followed by a much freer, lighter movement of the rewind knob which makes it clear that film's wound all in.

Indeed taking out the canister shows it is.

This happened twice already with both films I've shot on the camera.

 

What could be happening? My M6 clearly doesn't allow me to keep on winding like a madman, reaching the end of the film prevents the winder to work, lest the film be broken off the canister.

 

My only speculation is that the teeth engaging the sprockets are very slippery and just won't pull the film at some point, preferring to slip. Could this have anything to do with my not winding back the film a little bit during loading, before shooting frames -2 and -1?

 

Please, any thoughts!

 

Kind regards,

Radu

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Did you have the film developed? It sounds like your M3 (sometimes) does not advance the film for a full frame in between shots, resulting in unwanted double exposures.

 

My M2 did this before the CLA. The first shots on a roll were fine, after 10-15 shots part of the previous frame overlapped the next.

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... continued after some more experimentation:

After this happening twice, I wanted to open the back plate and see what's happening, understand how come I can still wind so long past frame 40.

So I've loaded a Kodak 200 I had lying around, this time following the step that takes up any slack in the film by winding it back a little during loading (before getting to frame 0).

I'm not sure if this had anything to do with it, but at frame 38 or so I couldn't wind anymore, as expected, so I couldn't reproduce the issue.

 

Was I simply shooting over and over frame 38 (or 39) before, and each time just taking up slack in the take-up spool?

 

Anyway, I'd still very much like to know how it was possible. Any insight much appreciated!

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Did you have the film developed? It sounds like your M3 (sometimes) does not advance the film for a full frame in between shots, resulting in unwanted double exposures.

 

My M2 did this before the CLA. The first shots on a roll were fine, after 10-15 shots part of the previous frame overlapped the next.

 

The film's out for development (XP2 so it'll be fast), so I don't know yet...

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Possibly when you had the problem originally you simply broke the sprockets on the film at the end, so you will have a very overexposed last frame. You might have a VERY close look inside the camera to check for pieces of film, they can give problems if they get into the shutter.

 

Welcome to the forum, shame the first post is about a problem, but we try to help!

 

Gerry

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Is it that the rewind release mechanism isn't functioning properly i.e. normally, when you wind on after having rewound a film, there is a click as the mechanism engages stopping accidental rewind. So, if that mechanism wasn't fully engaged, perhaps normal film advance is possible but when the resistance is felt at the end of the film, the anti rewind mechanism doesn't prevent the further movement of the advance lever. Am I explaining what I mean adequately?

Pete

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Possibly when you had the problem originally you simply broke the sprockets on the film at the end, so you will have a very overexposed last frame. You might have a VERY close look inside the camera to check for pieces of film, they can give problems if they get into the shutter.

 

Welcome to the forum, shame the first post is about a problem, but we try to help!

 

Gerry

 

Hi Gerry,

 

I thought of the same for a while, but there's no bits loose in there that I could see (blew an air rocket a few times as well). I would expect to feel some sort of resistance as well before breaking the sprockets, but I really didn't notice a difference going from frame say 34 to 40.

 

This will of course become clear when I get the film back.

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Is it that the rewind release mechanism isn't functioning properly i.e. normally, when you wind on after having rewound a film, there is a click as the mechanism engages stopping accidental rewind. So, if that mechanism wasn't fully engaged, perhaps normal film advance is possible but when the resistance is felt at the end of the film, the anti rewind mechanism doesn't prevent the further movement of the advance lever. Am I explaining what I mean adequately?

Pete

 

Hi Pete,

 

I don't remember hearing anything like that, but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention.

What I do is set the lever to R, rewind, unload, load back in, wind back a little to increase tension as the manual says (a step I've not performed initially, but when I did the problem described went away, i.e. encountered the strong resistance at film end), close the camera, move the lever away from R, wind and shoot twice.

 

However, even if "the anti rewind mechanism doesn't prevent the further movement of the advance lever" wouldn't the film itself act as a stop, being taped inside the canister? I'm not expecting the camera to stop me, after all they don't know how many positions there are and just stop counting at 40. Unless I've misunderstood your reply?...

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The take up spool and cogs only move in one direction normally. If you try to rewind the film you can't. When you flick the rewind switch to R you disengage a mechanism so that the spool and cogs can move in the opposite direction allowing the film to be rewound. I'm wondering if when the film comes to its end in the canister, the cogs and spool stop moving because the mechanism isn't engaging properly, but you can continue to move the advance lever and cock the shutter.

Have you tried loading a film, and with the back open, advance a couple of frames then apply pressure to the film to prevent it moving to see if the cogs/spool stop moving. Alternatively, advance a whole film through and see what happens when the film is at its end.

Pete

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There is a clutch on the film advance mechanisim that could need adjusting, or the mechanism as a whole, gears etc, is worn out. One thing that may also point to these faults are unevenly spaced frames.

 

Steve

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Pete, Steve,

 

I've posted a reply yesterday but for some reason (I suspect adding a link to my second post on this page) it requires that a moderator reviews it.

 

I basically said: can you check out my second post on this page, as it seems that if I follow the instructions when loading the film (regarding winding it back into the canister before winding and firing twice to reach frame 0) I no longer experience this issue of winding like mad past frame 40.

I'm getting both films (one with the issue, and one that stopped at 38 firmly as they always do on my M6) being developed today, so I'll see if I had overlapping frames in the first one, broken sprockets, or who knows what else could have happened...

 

Thanks everyone for your answers so far, I'll come back to this when I know more.

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I would find it a bit odd if taking up the slack when loading the film would have any impact on your issue at the end of the film.

 

If you haven't encountered the problem on subsequent rolls it would seem to be related to the first two rolls, for instance that the sprocket holes broke (though winding on would likely have caused strange sounds to be heard).

 

The alternative is that the cogs with the teeth are broken but the fact that your camera seems to have worked on subsequent films speaks against that.

 

 

 

Pete, Steve,

 

I've posted a reply yesterday but for some reason (I suspect adding a link to my second post on this page) it requires that a moderator reviews it.

 

I basically said: can you check out my second post on this page, as it seems that if I follow the instructions when loading the film (regarding winding it back into the canister before winding and firing twice to reach frame 0) I no longer experience this issue of winding like mad past frame 40.

I'm getting both films (one with the issue, and one that stopped at 38 firmly as they always do on my M6) being developed today, so I'll see if I had overlapping frames in the first one, broken sprockets, or who knows what else could have happened...

 

Thanks everyone for your answers so far, I'll come back to this when I know more.

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So I got both films back.

 

The Kodak Gold 200 that I've loaded according to the manual, paying attention at talking up slack, is perfect - frames evenly spaced out and close together, all frames exposed, etc.

 

The Ilford XP2 though, is... weird. The frames start getting further and further apart, from a few millimeters to about 2 cm - almost an inch about frame 30. The increase in space between frames seems gradual.

Apart from that, exposures are great and everything is normal, as you can see in the first photo.

/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7269/7631788538_9340e6767f_b_d.jpg&key=3b2dc8fb31bff24dfa966196d9479b54e568dec2bb420875c34185c80b272665">

 

Then at about frame 30 starts the fun - a whole set of 10 exposures or more all slowly sliding towards the end of the roll, super-imposed one over the other.

This is fun and strangely enough captures the mood quite well, but... I'd hardly like this to happen again:

/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8010/7631769362_a8c71e3493_b_d.jpg&key=db28c66a38f474123cb9920e85a723336c6bf01629d785097cbbfa15b334719e">

 

The sprockets of the entire film are intact.

 

Is this possible it's all down to slack in the film?

The multiple exposures at the end would seem to indicate so, right?

 

Cheers,

Radu

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It isn't down to slack in the film, you are going up a blind alley with that idea. The film could be waving in the wind at the cassette end and it shouldn't make any difference to the way it is transported across the gate. Taking the tension is only to assure the user that the film is being moved just after loading it, it's not a requirement for it to be moved accurately with the advance lever. It is the clutch and or the whole advance mechanism that is at fault.

 

Steve

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Hi Steve,

 

Thanks for the advice.

Is there anything I could be doing differently that would cause issues with a film, and then none with the next one?

 

Guess I should find a repair service around? I've just bought this as working in perfect order.

 

Cheers,

Radu

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Hi Steve,

 

Thanks for the advice.

Is there anything I could be doing differently that would cause issues with a film, and then none with the next one?

 

Guess I should find a repair service around? I've just bought this as working in perfect order.

 

Cheers,

Radu

 

Different makes and types of film have different winding characteristics because of the thickness and flexibility of the film base. If the camera needs a service then using a film that makes it easy to wind could delay the event, and make it look like the camera was OK.

 

Nice portrait you posted by the way.

 

Steve

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Thanks again Steve. The botched wound film was Ilford XP2 Super 400, the one that was fine was Kodak Gold 200.

I've got a Tri-X in it now, which is my first attempt with this film, so I hope it comes out fine.

 

Anyone happen to know how/where I should best send off the M3 for repairs - I live in the Netherlands (Amsterdam).

 

Thanks everyone again!

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I was once recommended Ton Scherpenborg in Nijmegen but eventually didn't have to send in my equipment. I've PMd you his details.

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