Managing Color & ICC Profiles

[roguewave]

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I'd like to see if there's enough interest to start a dialog about managing color with all the devices we use; cameras, scanner, printers, along with procedures to make & share ICC profiles. I know there are several good posts already on the forum, but creating a library for all the members to be able to access might have some real value. I'm always hungry to learn and there's just so much to master. Anyone game?

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[IWC Doppel]

Still learning here, I would be very interested to see how to get the colours of monitors correct to gauge colour adjustments. I did have an xrite for calibrating mt projector

[archi4]

I will gladly share any knowledge I have as well as all the profiles I have made (LR3 and LR4 camera, RPP camera, paper profiles for many papers for Epson 3880 etc.)

Monitor profiles are too specific as to the monitor and its age and the luminance which belonngs to the profile.

[jaapv]

i may enter here later; I’m just starting out on Bruce Frasers Real World Color Management” Tough going...

[Jamie Roberts]

Ben,

 

Colour profile creation is a long, expensive and intricate process in my experience. It requires some pretty good understanding of light and colour.

 

And there's the issue of LR not using input ICC profiles, while Phase One does Tweaking ICC profiles in Phase One V6 is pretty easy, actually, but again it does take awhile to figure out.

 

So I'm not sure sharing is even possible across systems. But if someone has a good LR profile, then sure--go ahead.

 

In the larger picture there's more to consider here.

 

For non-critical (eg photographic management) colour management, you need to decide on a workflow. If you follow someone like Dan Margulis, you can measure colour and be reasonably assured of what you'll get on output without a WYSIWYG system given a light temperature and printing method; if you want to go that way, you need the right monitor and profiling system (you can't skimp here) and then you need to understand your output.

 

Because honestly, the biggest hurdle is to understand how you take a relatively wide space (camera colour space) and get it down to a relatively narrow space (print or display space), and how unpredictable those can be.

[melissah]

I have a question some what related, as always I'm happy to share whatever I've learned so far, or what I'm using.

I have a epson 4800 using imageprint. I'm not using current imageprint version but it still fine until I install lion (currently snow leopard).

 

I would like to use cone color pro instead of epsons inks. Reasons: saves a ton of money, ecologically sound and probably more permanent.

I have heard that because CCP doesn't have dyes it's Dmax isnt the same. This is due to something I already forgot...

 

My concern is the imageprint profiles won't work with the cone (CCP) inks.

 

As for my work flow, Ben, I do basic in LR3/4 then open in photoshop turn profile view on,select paper profile,convert to smart filters (if B/W) use nik software, check to see profile view is still on and usually add an adjustment layer of brightness. Why? I dont know honestly. In theory I should have been able to made the correct brightness in LR4 and/or nik, but that never works and this does. Then I save as tiff with original. Then I resize to print I'm making, save as again.( I also keep a forum folder of images processed to post here but that often gets mucked up going from computer to computer.)

 

I open imageprint, make sure profiles are the same as they were in photoshop, drag and drop print, center and print.

 

I would rather make candles or braid peoples hair on a touristy third world country beach than make printer profiles.

For one thing my (and everyone's admit it or not) color vision is radically different from when you wake up to when you go to sleep.

If I look at what I print at night versus what I print in the day? Well you can finish this sentence, it's as different as night...

 

I also think there's something to be said for personal color sense. I might really push that magenta flower because when I shot it it spoke to me. However in reality if I'm making correct calibrations, it would be correct to dial down the magenta.

 

Sorry so long. But any help on the cone color pro, imageprint, and epson 4800 would be oh so helpful.

[Jamie Roberts]

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}snipped}

I would rather make candles or braid peoples hair on a touristy third world country beach than make printer profiles.

For one thing my (and everyone's admit it or not) color vision is radically different from when you wake up to when you go to sleep.

If I look at what I print at night versus what I print in the day? Well you can finish this sentence, it's as different as night...

 

I also think there's something to be said for personal color sense. I might really push that magenta flower because when I shot it it spoke to me. However in reality if I'm making correct calibrations, it would be correct to dial down the magenta.

{snipped}

 

Melissa,

 

There's a lot of implicit questions in your post, and I'll try to answer a few of them as briefly as I can.

 

First, for the Cone colour inks, you should see if ImagePrint has a profile for them. They are constantly updating their profile db, so check there first. They may not work with your version however.

 

Secondly, if there is no colour profile, you'd need to make one yourself.

 

Now--you don't make a print profile "by eye" but with a spectophotometer and profiling software. It's true that for things like skin tones and so on some degree of interpretation may be required, or for critical colour management. But most photographic systems from xRite, say, don't require a lot of input from the photographer. So it doesn't really matter whether you profile your inkset in the morning or evening The spectro will "see" the ink and paprer in the same way (as long as the ambient light is controlled).

 

The point here isn't to "capture your colour sense" but to make a good, neutral-ish, profile for consistency--so you can print what you want to print (and that includes your personal pushing of colour, or boosting of contrast and brightness. BTW--you're either doing that because of the proofing mechanism trying to show the "dullness" of paper or because your monitor has its brightness set too high for print, so it looks muddy from Lightroom. This is a common problem with LCD screens, and impossible to fix on a laptop. But to try to fix this, try a monitor luminance of 105-110 cd/m2 in your monitor profiler software).

 

Finally, if you switch to Cone inks, even with a colour profile, ImagePrint may no longer be able to do a great BW. They do colour mixing / ink limiting in the driver to minimize metamerism and create as neutral a BW as possible, so if you want to print BW with ImagePrint,

 

Net: I'd stay away from the Cone inks. If you're finding the 4800 expensive (especially switching paper stocks) you should sell it and get a 3880 instead (unless you really need the size difference).

[melissah]

thx Jamie!

i love my 4800 and want to keep it til it dies (gasp) i have so much equipment ive recently realized if i have to replace everything the dollar amount is absurd -this is including cameras.

 

yes i realize that the profiles are made with spectrometers and it doesnt matter if being made day or night. im also assuming that this is how imageprint or any other software profiler does it.

 

im just saying should i start doing them (no non no never!) then i will be influenced by the neutrality of the profile which, is correct but not my intent in finished print. obviously the solution is to have profiles made to fav. papers.

 

one thing i do use is Phatte black. so switching paper stocks isnt a problem ever. also the cone color pro are pigments, not inks although they do sell a different set that are inks.

 

cone pro is roughly 60% cheaper yet, the set up is the same as a 220ml replacement set of epson.

this is because you need a set of empty re-usable cartridges and a chip setter.

 

then after that is when the real savings come in.

 

the online photographer has an exercise where you make a print a day. its interesting in that you make a print, date/number it, look at it the next day with a critical eye, rinse repeat. you do this everyday for a yr. and then look back at all to see how youve changed.

youre only supposed to spend 15min on ea print. every once in a while you make a master print where you spend forever (ok hours) on it then put that print on the wall.

 

this is why i was looking into cone color pro.

 

as for the print exercise im on the fence because its an excuse for me to be lazy. so im going to have to modify the exercise by doing master prints more frequently.

 

and you are oh so right about laptop display. annoying to say the least.

again thx so much.