M3 Question for the experts

[Timmyjoe]

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I was just ready to buy an M3 from the auction site, had done all my research and thought I had found a good one, when suddenly I noticed something. The camera is claimed to be a late serial number #1041XXX and a single stroke, which is what I was looking for. But then I noticed these two screws:

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I had not seen them on other later model M3 cameras like this one below:

 

 

Upon further study, I found the screws on other M3 models, all with serial numbers below #781XXX, as seen below:

 

 

So it now appears to me that someone put a higher serial number cover on an earlier Leica M3. Can anyone shed some light on this?

 

Thanks for any and all information.

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[sandro]

You may be right. I checked my M3's and the early number has both screws, the later number doesn't. The serial number on your M3 would date it in 1961, but following the serial number there is an asterisk. I am not sure what that would mean. But there is another detail which may confirm that this really is a later M3: the knob to unlock the bayonet is like it appears on the later M3; the earlier ones show a completely round button instead of this one with one side cut off.

Lex

[Timmyjoe]

Thanks Lex. I think I'm gonna pass on this M3 and keep looking.

[farnz]

As I understand it, an asterisk after the serial number normally means that it's a factory copy of the item with the original serial number. So, for example, if the top deck of your M3 stopped a bullet for you;) and needed to be replaced then Leica would put the same serial number onto a new top deck and add an asterisk.

 

This might explain why your noting the presence of the screws for that serial number.

 

Pete.

[aesop]

You may be right. I checked my M3's and the early number has both screws, the later number doesn't. The serial number on your M3 would date it in 1961, but following the serial number there is an asterisk. I am not sure what that would mean. But there is another detail which may confirm that this really is a later M3: the knob to unlock the bayonet is like it appears on the later M3; the earlier ones show a completely round button instead of this one with one side cut off.

Lex

 

 

...Tim and Lex, re: M serial numbers and asterisks, you may want to bone up on this. Hope it helps.

[Timmyjoe]

...Tim and Lex, re: M serial numbers and asterisks, you may want to bone up on this. Hope it helps.

 

Interesting.

[M9reno]

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Hi Tim,

 

Have a look at this interesting typology of M3 variations:

 

Forum - M3 BEGINS "M3之謎"

 

It gives the front screws on M3 from s.n. 700 001 until 782 001. From the asterisk I would guess the camera is a factory restoration. If you compare other details you may find other points of divergence from its original state.

 

For another case of a factory restored M3, and possible rationales for buying one (or not), have a look at the following thread:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-collectors-historica/201003-unengraved-m3-baseplate.html

 

This became my own M3, with which I've been very happy.

 

Best wishes.

[Timmyjoe]

Thanks for the links Al. Fascinating.

[jc_braconi]

The M3 you shown was certainly rebuild in a Leitz factory using a new top including most parts on an early model issued before 1957 I guess.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

 

If the photos of this camera are not cobbled together from a # of photos of different cameras & if this camera actually exists then it is more likely we are not talking about a camera w/ a different top cover but rather we are talking about a camera w/ a different chassis which therefore requires a different top cover.

 

So the next question to ask is: What is/is not different in a camera w/ the earlier chassis & why might a person w/ a later M3 want that as an option w/ the more modern shutter, etc already in the more modern M3?

 

BTW: The reason I said possibly "cobbled" is the front mounting screws on the more recent M3 are in the correct place but appear to be a little larger & more hemispherical than the 1's on the first M3's.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[jc_braconi]

You may be right. I checked my M3's and the early number has both screws, the later number doesn't. The serial number on your M3 would date it in 1961, but following the serial number there is an asterisk. I am not sure what that would mean. But there is another detail which may confirm that this really is a later M3: the knob to unlock the bayonet is like it appears on the later M3; the earlier ones show a completely round button instead of this one with one side cut off.

Lex

the late M3's do not have the ring around the button, alike you find on the M4.

[luigi bertolotti]

The M3 you shown was certainly rebuild in a Leitz factory using a new top including most parts on an early model issued before 1957 I guess.

 

Me too agree with this explanation... the presence of the asterisk fits well too in the context of a factory rebuild.

 

(an alternative "yellowbook" hipotesis could be an older item, stolen and re-numbered by a sophisticated thief...)

[Cheekyguille]

Another oddity is the round strap lugs typical of the newer SS M3s. It is an odd combination indeed.

[jaques]

I also noticed that the film rewind crank is the later type with the two red dots- the early dual stroke M3's didn't have those dots but a screw head.

 

My own m3 has a very early serial number: 732114- however it is single stroke- and has a self timer and RF preview lever. It has the glass type film plate- the 'buddha' ear strap lugs, the complete film release button, and the earlier type rewind crank. It seems it was modified by Leitz at some time to make it single stroke and the self timer was also added. It works so smoothly- and has such a nice finder- I like it more than later serial number M3's I have owned: it is my favorite.

 

For what it is worth I would not be afraid of the M3 you have pictured: it looks liek an interesting camera- with a bit of mystery.

[jpattison]

To me it looks like a late M3 that had a damaged top plate replaced at a Leica repair centre (not Wetzlar or Solms) that only had an early top plate in stock.

 

John