B&W sensor only?-- Merged--

[babaciciyo]

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On the past leica take the risk of moire pattern but unexpectedly faced with the infrared contamination because of thin cover glass of the sensor(M8).What we see today,other major companies realized that it was right to do so and follow the same way(Nikon D800E).On the past again, sensors have RGB BAYERN pattern and do need alot of computer calcutions that I call it personally as "hokus pokus" do not represant the real life,foveon attemp to solve problem on the tree layer bases of RGB.Today what we need is more natural sensor on the bases of lights on and off but no color pattern and computer lies.That what I wish to see like on DCRAW with D or d command on the out of camera files with sounds of Santana "turn the lights off".

[stunsworth]

Wouldn't a camera with a b&w sensor give the same results - in terms of tonality - of desaturating a colour image? Surely we all know what an unsatisfactory result that often gives.

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[AlanJW]

Now I know that Leica is already catering to a niche market but this would be a niche of the niche. I personally would not have an interest as I do shoot color and convert to BW when it is appropriate. I would not want to lose that choice.

[pop]

Why would you want an expensive camera that cannot take color photographs?

 

Perhaps because someone would like an expensive camera that takes even better B/W photographs than the one at hand?

[Jamie Roberts]

I would not be interested in this in the slightest.

[40mm f/2]

Makes sense to me: limited marketed - fits the limited supply of lenses:D

You could use a B&W sensor for color by using 3 filters- has been done before (like a century).

[stunsworth]

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Perhaps because someone would like an expensive camera that takes even better B/W photographs than the one at hand?

 

But would it? If the tonal characteristics were those of a desaturated colour image it wouldn't look good at all - regardless of increased resolution.

[pop]

...If the tonal characteristics were those of a desaturated colour image it wouldn't look good at all - regardless of increased resolution.

 

B/W films are carefully designed to yield a pleasing or convincing mapping from hue to brightness. Simply dropping the chroma and saturation channels is not designed towards that end and will produce disappointing results for that reason.

 

I think we can safely assume if a high quality camera maker sells a B/W camera that the mapping from colored light to B/W brightness will be as carefully crafted as for film.

 

If...

[Jeff S]

But I'd rather have Epson put out a dedicated bw printer.

 

+1

 

...with 8 or so shades white to black.

 

Jeff

[k_g_wolf ✝]

Instead of introducing a "new" camera for b/w-only they should improve the incamera b/w-abilities

of their overpriced existing flagship, the M9. A b/w-special edition does only secure their production

- hopefully - until Sept. before the ultimate M10 appears.

 

 

 

 

best

GEORG

Edited March 15, 2012 by k_g_wolf

[stunsworth]

I think we can safely assume if a high quality camera maker sells a B/W camera that the mapping from colored light to B/W brightness will be as carefully crafted as for film

 

But how would they do that without using a colour sensor? I thought a b&w pixel can only measure overal intensity, not the intensity at different frequencies of light. Can a pixel be sensitive at some frequencies in the visible spectrum?

[pico]

Me, I'm a color guy. Especially with digital. I do some B&W conversion, but I'm not about to work with a B&W-only camera.

 

But a monochrome sensor does offer the advantage of no color filters (which do reduce the available light, as dave_d mentions, by close to two stops). And for Leica, it does away with the headache of "red edge" and "cyan drift" and such. Uncoded or especially troublesome wide-angles like the 21mm Super-Angulons or some of the C/V wides would gain a new lease on life, for those who do only do B&W. It would indeed also require less IR filtering (but not zero - see LL review below), but would still need some kind of protective glass cover over the silicon.

 

Kodak made monochrome versions of a couple of their SLRs over the past two decades, including their very first DCS-100.

 

Kodak DCS 100

Kodak 760m Review

 

They were niche products and still didn't sell very well.

 

But Leica's "niche" is niches. A "special edition" by which they can suck an extra $5000 out of buyers is right up their alley.

 

Somebody (Fuji?) made a forensic digital camera. They required buyers to sign a statement that they will use it only for genuine forensic/scientific purposes (eg: not photographing through peoples clothes.)

 

About the fringing - while there is no color to see, the dominance of such frequencies should produce slight focus issues. No?

[Chroma project]

Leica’s Upcoming M-Series Camera May Have a B&W Sensor

 

i would love such M.

[tobey bilek]

insane. will it get curves and grain to match real B&W film? how does it simulate different color filters available to film users, or do I have to find my film filters?

[adan]

Leica’s Upcoming M-Series Camera May Have a B&W Sensor

 

i would love such M.

 

Better change your user name to "Luminance project"

 

Tobey, yeah, you'd have to dig out the 25A and other filters for tone control based on subject colors - just like Delta 100.

 

Pico, no, the broad area "red-edge" type stuff isn't the same as chromatic aberrations. Red-edge may even be caused in part by the Bayer pattern (per Stefan Daniel).

 

However - yes, lens chromatic aberrations will present as blur or double-images, without the possibility of corrections, since there will not be 3 color channels that can be scaled for alignment in .dng processing as there are in full-color images.

 

I wonder, in fact, how raw processors would handle a single-channel image with no Bayer pattern to "de-bayerize." I guess something could be written into the .dng metadata that says "don't try to combine data from neighboring pixels with this image."

[mtomalty]

Don't know how successful it's been from a sales point but PhaseOne has a black and white

only digital back in their lineup

 

Pure black and white medium format digital back

 

Achromatic+

 

 

 

 

Mark

[Jim-St]

Don't know how successful it's been from a sales point but PhaseOne has a black and white

only digital back in their lineup

 

Pure black and white medium format digital back

 

Achromatic+

 

 

And that's got a Kodak sensor in too. Images look good from it, see here

 

There just might be something in this....

 

Jim

[chrism]

In past threads many of us have said we would buy an M9 with a B&W sensor and no LCD, as long as it was as thin as a film M, and I was one of them - I still would. This was wishful thinking, as I can't see any camera manufacturer thinking a camera with no LCD would sell in significant numbers. Since I only put B&W films in my analog Ms (all five of them:eek:) it makes perfect sense to me. But it would not to most, who need flexibility. But I know I have an OM-D arriving next month (I loved the original OM series and will be happy to use the OM-D for general photography requiring colour). But if the May 10 date has any significance, this is the M10, and Leica must know there is little profit in my strange and narrow preferences.

 

Chris

[Printmaker]

Unless I'm seriously mistaken, all digital sensors are fundamentally black and white with a pattern of red, blue and green filters laid over the sensor. Remove the filters and the resulting image will have both a higher resolution and greater dynamic range.

 

Sure, you will lose some of the control software gives in changing the capture's tonality but the trade-off would be a 36-54 MB capture with excellent range and crisp tonal transitions. It would result in a unique look that could be very appealing.

 

From a printer's perspective, I don't like to print B&W digital conversions too large because they do not look natural. Where a color capture from the M9 can make a spectacular 24x36, a B&W conversion looks better at 16x24. If this new camera can produce a full tonal range at somewhere around the 36 + MB range, then 40x60 inch B&W prints will be stunning.

 

So yes, if this is the case - and the camera is not a $8,000 to $10,000 special edition but rather one south of the $5,000 mark - then count me in. Chrome MP style please.

 

Tom

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Hallo,

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[stunsworth]

Yes, but as far as I've been able to discover you would have a B&W image that was equivalent to a desaturated colour image, and that is almost always a poor image tonally