Jaybob Posted May 7, 2012 Share #21 Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Hmmm... Just my opinion, shooting over someone's shoulder is as far away from creative as you can get. I think being ANYWHERE around another shooter is disruptive, PLUS why would you want to take the same picture that someone else took? Ever? Here's a challenge for you, take your OWN pictures and make them interesting. As far "getting them lined up" being easy, it isn't. Espeically in a loud roomful of excited "invited" guests, everyone of which has a phone that can take pictures. After the ceremony, any non-family and non-wedding party not IN the photographs are cleared out of the room for the "line up" pictures. 18 pairs of eyes need to be pointed all the same direction, and that cannot happen if 50 people are all taking the same picture over my shoulder. By the way, while the line up shots are important, 99 times out of one hundred, they are the least interesting exposures, and 100 times out of one hundred the least challenging technically and creatively of the day. It's not a joke. It's serious business. You aren't physically stopping the pro from doing his or her job, but you are a speed bump in what often is a 10 to 15 hour day. It doesn't matter if you're using an digital Rebel, a Rolleiflex TLR, an M8, or a crappy cell phone. You may have been invited to the wedding, but they actually PAID the pro (in some cases alot..) to show up. The pro is the couples eyes and memories for the day, and their job is to pay attention to them, not be disrupted by you and your expensive camera. What are you actually providing? If you've irritated the paid professional more than once, I have some bad news for you, IT'S YOU where the problem lies. If we "bump into each other" (because you're behind me) more than once, I respectully ask you to find your own pictures, and I mean immediately. You should pass on every opportunity to annoy anybody. You think you may have kissed and made up, but trust me, that shooter doesn't think much of you... Edited May 7, 2012 by Jaybob 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 7, 2012 Posted May 7, 2012 Hi Jaybob, Take a look here Oh The Joy.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ThorkilB Posted May 7, 2012 Share #22 Posted May 7, 2012 Lads…please no hard words…specially not about ceilings..(my working-area too) Well, I just sat down here and thought about whether a D800E could deal with those rather fine colours on the pics, sort of liked them actually Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted May 7, 2012 Share #23 Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) Hi erl...I see your from Melbourne, that explains a great deal.... ..meaning?? I see you are from 'nowhere'. I am left wondering what that explains, unlike your previous posts which explain a great deal. Frankly, I don't want to get into a slanging match with you but clearly your lack of experience in these matters needed some enlightenment. I was delivering that bluntly, which is the clearest method, when information needs to be communicated. At a wedding or other social gathering, there is a high need for courtesy. That usually prevents the truth from being practiced. Here on the forum I think the shots should be called for what they are. That's what I did. I don't think there would be a single wedding, or other photographer that deals with the public, that would disagree with me. My final advice. Leave the formal stuff the the Pro. It's frequently boring repetitive stuff photographically anyway. Use your freedom to exploit the wonderful little scenarios that surround the bridal party amongst the guests. That is where the gold in pictures is. Edited May 7, 2012 by erl 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikenic Posted May 8, 2012 Share #24 Posted May 8, 2012 I'm with erl on this one. This puts food on the table for people in this industry and it is a business. There are pre wedding meetings with B&G and family members, location recces, and then more planning etc etc and guess what, it is not good form when someone throws a spanner in the works by distracting or upsetting the subjects, whether deliberately or not. I guess I grew to expect this from the "average punter" if you like. But if someone turned up with a medium format or Leica, I somehow expected that they should know better and I dealt with them appropriately. It is not unheard of that the contract with B&G includes a proviso that if photos other than the paid photographers ones are taken, the paid photog will leave immediately. Harsh, and seldom enforced, but did happen when I was in the business. I got out of it when guests tried to rest their mobile phones on my shoulder to shoot as I set up the couple and guests. Then the images were posted up on the internet before I finished the reception. Having said that, it did not bother me too much, because my particular business model insisted on full upfront payment prior to the wedding, so it didn't matter a great deal anyway based on the way I structured it. But you are only as good as your last job in that industry and "seamless" coverage on the day is just as important to them as the subsequent memories you provide for them. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted May 8, 2012 Share #25 Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) .... It is not unheard of that the contract with B&G includes a proviso that if photos other than the paid photographers ones are taken, the paid photog will leave immediately. Harsh, and seldom enforced, but did happen when I was in the business. Even though I shoot 98% photojournalistic, mostly because I have a newspaper background and it's the way I'm the most comfortable working (and it's the style that couples hire me for), that snippet is in my contract as well... I have NO problem telling people to leave the area where the couple is being photographed, or to tell them to stop shooting without seeming like a jerk. "Leave it to the professionals" or "Keep moving, nothing to see here...", or "You know, they've got FREE drinks at the reception..." or I just hand them my Nikon stuff and say "It's heavy, isn't it? Perhaps you should take over and I'll use your phone..." Typing however, always makes me seem like a jerk. That particular clause and the entire contract is discussed before hand with the couple getting married. It's CLEARLY understood that the post ceremony couples portraits and family groups are always off limits to the guests and the videographers (if they have them), as well. My contract also stipulates that I receive the same type of meal at the reception that the guests receive, not a sandwich and a bag of potato chips. During the reception, I could care less what anyone shoots, just as long as they're not behind me shooting the same thing more than once. As Erl said, that's where the gold is. Edited May 8, 2012 by Jaybob Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 8, 2012 Share #26 Posted May 8, 2012 I'm with erl on this one. This puts food on the table for people in this industry and it is a business. There are pre wedding meetings with B&G and family members, location recces, and then more planning etc etc and guess what, it is not good form when someone throws a spanner in the works by distracting or upsetting the subjects, whether deliberately or not. I guess I grew to expect this from the "average punter" if you like. But if someone turned up with a medium format or Leica, I somehow expected that they should know better and I dealt with them appropriately. It is not unheard of that the contract with B&G includes a proviso that if photos other than the paid photographers ones are taken, the paid photog will leave immediately. Harsh, and seldom enforced, but did happen when I was in the business. I got out of it when guests tried to rest their mobile phones on my shoulder to shoot as I set up the couple and guests. Then the images were posted up on the internet before I finished the reception. Having said that, it did not bother me too much, because my particular business model insisted on full upfront payment prior to the wedding, so it didn't matter a great deal anyway based on the way I structured it. But you are only as good as your last job in that industry and "seamless" coverage on the day is just as important to them as the subsequent memories you provide for them. And that is why it is so important to communicate beforehand - if the pro says no way - to me that is no way ( but one might consider whether that is a wise response.) In other cases, as I said only if the couple askes me to do some additonal shooting, I will restrict myself to getting the insider shots, within the margins set by the pro.. It is neither my work nor my expertise to provide full coverage of the wedding. That is my viewpoint coming from the dark side Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted May 8, 2012 Share #27 Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) The only wedding I did try to photograph was MY OWN... (Leica M2, 1991...) of course with very partial coverage... . the Pro in charge didn't pose problems, execpt the advice to hide away my camera when he took me & her... Or, to be honest, the only other occasion was indeed a trial (Leica IIIc, 1983 , my sister's wedding) in the sense that I failed the correct loading of film (was my 1st Leica... happens...) and didn't expose at all... Edited May 8, 2012 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted May 8, 2012 Share #28 Posted May 8, 2012 Ooops.... still on speaking terms with your sister?? Anyway, this is a well known problem, I recall taking photo's at Ryoanji temple in Kyoto finding at the end of the day that the film seemed to be lasting much more than my usual 39 frames (economic film loading technique)......... Had to return the next day to take some pictures again:o Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac22 Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share #29 Posted May 8, 2012 My final advice. Leave the formal stuff the the Pro. It's frequently boring repetitive stuff photographically anyway. Use your freedom to exploit the wonderful little scenarios that surround the bridal party amongst the guests. That is where the gold in pictures is. Cheers for that erl.....I knew you had some gems of wisdom once you calmed down a bit... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted May 8, 2012 Share #30 Posted May 8, 2012 Cheers for that erl.....I knew you had some gems of wisdom once you calmed down a bit... Mac22, trust me, I was always calm, but I was being firm. Quite seriously, shooting other than the official bridal group can be FAR more interesting. That is what I prefer to do and am reluctant to shoot any more weddings officially these days. I can understand the desire to shoot 'the group' because they are the reason that everyone is there. Frankly, I believe the best 'casual' pics are obliquely from the side of the groups. Usually you will get more relaxed expressions, not staring down the barrel of your camera. I still think the guests are generally the better photographic target, especially at the reception. The Leica will shine there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac22 Posted May 9, 2012 Author Share #31 Posted May 9, 2012 Cheers erl... It does seem actually taking the picture is the easy part...The post processing seems an art in itself... I have an old version of Aperture on my Mac that I just can't get on with. Might upgrade to the latest version and read the damn destructions, sorry instructions.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbealnz Posted May 9, 2012 Share #32 Posted May 9, 2012 And, anyway, what's wrong with Melbourne? I'm headed there for a long weekend soon, LOL. Looking forward to it immensely. Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted May 9, 2012 Share #33 Posted May 9, 2012 And, anyway, what's wrong with Melbourne? I'm headed there for a long weekend soon, LOL.Looking forward to it immensely. Gary Nothing much wrong with Melbourne, but there is a hell of a lot right with it! You should have a great time here with a Leica, or any camera. Enjoy your visit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 9, 2012 Share #34 Posted May 9, 2012 Cheers erl... It does seem actually taking the picture is the easy part...The post processing seems an art in itself... I have an old version of Aperture on my Mac that I just can't get on with. Might upgrade to the latest version and read the damn destructions, sorry instructions.... Why don't you get Capture One, Lightroom or Photoshop - that is a different ball game. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac22 Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share #35 Posted May 11, 2012 Why don't you get Capture One, Lightroom or Photoshop - that is a different ball game. I think I'm edging towards Lightroom, see if I can fumble my way through that... erl, I'm off to Adelaide in January to see my sister, maybe we could meet up and exchange notes on amateur wedding photography... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted May 11, 2012 Share #36 Posted May 11, 2012 I think I'm edging towards Lightroom, see if I can fumble my way through that... erl, I'm off to Adelaide in January to see my sister, maybe we could meet up and exchange notes on amateur wedding photography... LR is fine but I believe C1 Pro is better (opinion). My notes on amateur wedding photography would make your hair curl, but PM me if you are in Melbourne. If I am around then I can usually arrange a meeting. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMyers Posted May 11, 2012 Share #37 Posted May 11, 2012 I might be in the minority here. I've got my own photography forum in the middle of my forum system (sgrid.com), and I think people there would *welcome* someone like Erl coming along and pointing out the obvious. I know I would. My own attitude about wedding photos is a little different - whenever possible, wherever the pro is shooting, I try to be somewhere else. I want to come away with shots that nobody else captured, and I want the photos to be as "happy" and "natural" as possible. I've mostly done this in India. There are times when a group of us are all shooting the same thing, more or less, in which case I'll either put on an ultra wide angle lens to get a different view than I know they're getting, or maybe step away, so my photo is of the other photographers taking the picture of the wedding. I don't know any of the people involved in this discussion, but when someone posts something that's the wrong thing to do, even with a smiley face, a lot of readers are already taking it as serious, long before they (maybe) find something like a smiley, besides which I had a device years ago that wouldn't even display the smiley face thingies.... :-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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