M8 v1.1

[jaapv]

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Hmm....

 

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[herbkell]

Hmm....

 

Now we are justifying Leica's complete lack of customer focus by pointing out that Toyota has had product recalls....

 

I'ts simple for me:

 

M8 images can be great - not better than my 5D (IMHO) but great and I love the rangfinder approach to photography

 

I am frustrated by the slow fixes. I have a camera that has frozen several times (once for a couple of days!} and I have delayed sending it in because I am hoping that the firware includes something that stabilizes the camera.The delays experienced by others when returning the camera have influenced my decision and I have also delayed sending in a lens for coding as I don't want to be without it for six weeks or more ( as advised by NJ}

 

I am also leaving for a trip to SE Asia in a month and I really would like to receive the "free" IR filters before I go.

 

Surely we are entiltled to an update - as someone said earlier Leica has said nothing since November!

[jaapv]

Now we are justifying Leica's complete lack of customer focus by pointing out that Toyota has had product recalls....

 

I'ts simple for me:

 

M8 images can be great - not better than my 5D (IMHO) but great and I love the rangfinder approach to photography

 

I am frustrated by the slow fixes. I have a camera that has frozen several times (once for a couple of days!} and I have delayed sending it in because I am hoping that the firware includes something that stabilizes the camera.The delays experienced by others when returning the camera have influenced my decision and I have also delayed sending in a lens for coding as I don't want to be without it for six weeks or more ( as advised by NJ}

 

I am also leaving for a trip to SE Asia in a month and I really would like to receive the "free" IR filters before I go.

 

Surely we are entiltled to an update - as someone said earlier Leica has said nothing since November!

 

I was responding to a Toyota analogy by another poster - not justifying anything. This freezing thing. Although I have experienced it but once in the early days and the update seems to have eliminated it, and my 2nd camera has never done it yet, I am convinced it is in the battery - camera interface. Spare batteries will help, as well as resetting the camera completely. In the manual magnetic fields are mentioned. Is your cupboard where you keep the camera next to a loudspeaker by any chance?

[barjohn]

There is always a danger in analogies but herbkell hits it on the head. I wasn't trying to imply that no one else ever has problems but at least on my cars (a BMW and a Lexus) when they do go in on a recall they provide me a loaner, they don't tell me to hoof it (same as being without camera for 6 weeks)! Really, what I was aiming at was the emotional feeling of dissapointment and dissatisfaction one experiences when you lay out a substantial sum of money expecting the best or close to it and then getting less than you expected. It is all in how you are treated afterwards that can make or break a deal.

[jaapv]

Afaik Leica NJ has loaners for pro's. Again, it may have something to do with the distance, but communication by Leica Solms in my case has always been correct, fast, and very friendly and personalized.And I am not even a pro. They even called after picking up the camera for recall to check that it had been picked up. I realize that others have had other experiences, but what can I say? This is the way it happened to me.

[Jamie Roberts]

@ Herb--hey, Jaap and I were just responding to the analogy, which I still think is faulty--loaner or not, (John. I'm sure not everyone gets loaners).

 

And yes, your 5d is great, and so is mine. But IMO, the M8 images are actually demonstrably better in edge conditions at low ISOs. YMMV.

 

FWIW, the M8 doesn't band the way the 5d does, either, when using af lenses and the motor drive (I know, I know, but the 5d isn't immune from issues either). I can also fix backfocus issues myself, rather than sending it into Canon (which I've done).

 

So honestly, I understand the frustration and anger a lock up can cause. And I didn't like it when the wheel on my M8 broke either. But to say Leica has been blind to customer problems is simply ridiculous, IMO.

 

What bar should we hold them to? Canon's? Do we have to mention again all the completely unacknowledged burps and grunts around the 1d*2 releases?

 

Free hardware fixes, free filters, firmware updates, 30% off lenses, and public admission of errors--all within what? four months of the camera's release?

 

Yes, I'd like everything faster, but let's put this in perspective. Any company that's done what Leica has just doesn't sound like a company unfocussed on the customer to me.

 

I'm pretty darn sure you'll see an update soon, too. Remember PMA is only a week or so away.

[rosuna]

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I agree with Jamie.

[photolandscape]

Sorry to keep beating the same dead horse as in many of my earlier postings, but here is the point I would like to make.

 

Once again--this time in the case of the firmware 1.10 update promised for this month--Leica has the opportunity to do something active and positive, as opposed to hiding and ignoring their generally extremely loyal customer base. Their choice here is to control the rumor mill, the expectations, and the outcome. So far, all we have on February 26, 2007 AD is a new firestorm over a well-intentioned posting saying that v 1.10 will indeed be late (not exactly a surprise).

 

In my experience, Leica's executive team has done a deplorable job in communicating with us, its clients. All it takes is a more progressive mindset, some recognition of the effects of these problems on its customers, and communicating its thoughts accordingly. How hard is it to put out an e-mail to dealers and end-users or to post on one's website an honest status report? That is what bothers many of us to no end. Leica isn't alone in this regard--it's endemic in the business world, but you would think that with all the tools it has available, Leica would get out of its bunker and utter something.

 

It will really be interesting to see if they do anything in the next two days--making some sort of statement about 1.10, or updating us on the IR filters.

 

____________

 

On another note, I don't want to jump too far too fast into the flames from some of the earlier postings, but I will say that my move away from my old system (Canon SLR) to the M8 so far hasn't been a wise one. I was happy with the Canon, but was tired of its sheer bulk and lugging it around the world. I wanted something that would allow me to move about unnoticed and unfettered.

 

I really pushed the envelope financially to make the switch. My M8 arrived with dozens of oil or dust spots on the sensor, and a rangefinder way out of whack. I sent it off on my own dime (actually $85) to Allendale. They sent it to Germany, and I got it back 7 weeks later. Still trying to work through the dust spots, which I know are an inherent issue with all sensors in cameras with removeable lenses. The rangefinder is better but not great. I am trying to be optimistic, but I also can see the possibility that those of us who jumped in fairly early are going to pay a heavy financial price when/if they get these major issues addressed, and put out an M9, and my M8 will be worth relatively little and I'll take another financial hit.

 

In the end, there have just been too many mis-steps to accept what has transpired so far. Leica can still make amends and do things right and do things better. It's their call.

[herbkell]

@ Herb--hey, Jaap and I were just responding to the analogy, which I still think is faulty--loaner or not, (John. I'm sure not everyone gets loaners).

 

And yes, your 5d is great, and so is mine. But IMO, the M8 images are actually demonstrably better in edge conditions at low ISOs. YMMV.

 

FWIW, the M8 doesn't band the way the 5d does, either, when using af lenses and the motor drive (I know, I know, but the 5d isn't immune from issues either). I can also fix backfocus issues myself, rather than sending it into Canon (which I've done).

 

So honestly, I understand the frustration and anger a lock up can cause. And I didn't like it when the wheel on my M8 broke either. But to say Leica has been blind to customer problems is simply ridiculous, IMO.

 

What bar should we hold them to? Canon's? Do we have to mention again all the completely unacknowledged burps and grunts around the 1d*2 releases?

 

Free hardware fixes, free filters, firmware updates, 30% off lenses, and public admission of errors--all within what? four months of the camera's release?

 

Yes, I'd like everything faster, but let's put this in perspective. Any company that's done what Leica has just doesn't sound like a company unfocussed on the customer to me.

 

I'm pretty darn sure you'll see an update soon, too. Remember PMA is only a week or so away.

 

Jamie, as a pro I respect your thoughts on IQ. I am a non pixel peeping amateur who defines IQ by what I get from printed images. I have been delighted with my 5D and also pretty impressed by the M8

 

 

Free hardware fixes - it's called a warranty and even my $49 toaster has one!

 

Free filters - so far only a promise I have been waiting three months and so have most people

 

30% off lenses - this has been less than satifactory in my case. No one at Leica can tell me definatively what the situation on GST and PST in Canada is. I have called twice and emailed once and had two answers both in complete contradiction of each other. Euro converted price (as per the letter I received) is several hundred dollars higher than the US price so I would like to think this GST and PST is included but I have been unable to get a defintive response. Complete confusion on the "tax included" eg VAT versus "tax extra" eg GST and PST concept. Gave up and bought a grey market lens for a couple of hundred dollars more.

 

My personal point remains - nice camera, shitty service

[parigby]

Bearing in mind that l sort of got flamed a little, l have thought a bit about posting a response to the last batch of posts.

 

However here goes ( l've just ducked below my desk so your arrows will miss ) :

 

(1) it's the lack of communication with it's users that l find irritating

 

(2) no doubt l will be corrected if wrong, but a substantial proportion of Leica's market use these forums, and therefore any customer orientated company would use that to it's advantage. Not dear old Leica it appears to pretend that we don't exist.

 

(3) Leica does not seem to understand that if you communicated with this forum regularly in relation to problems, then they have lots to gain and nothing to lose

 

(4) I for one don't like being taken for granted, and that's how l feel. I will not be treated by Leica like a mushroom ( left to my own devices in the dark )

 

(5) l don't care where Leica have come from ; l'm not interested in their inexperience with digital ; l am not interested in the numerouse excuses you get from software people - when l pay out £3,000.00 for a cemera body, l expect it to work flawlessly.

 

(6) Leica is showing all the signs of an old style electronics company when fronted up by people like Sony - life would be so much better if these people (customers ) would go away and leave us to develop in peace. Look what happend to the market that Phillips had !

 

OBTW - l use the camera daily.

 

philip

[photolandscape]

You know, sometimes you have to take control, if this is bothering you so much, why don't you take a proactive role and make the first move and communicate your concerns and questions directly to leica by letter, phone or email?. Rather than wait and keep waiting past the indicated February delivery date, you make contact, they won't bite your head off.

 

Again, many of us have taken a proactive approach. Being proactive is great as long as it produces a response. With regard to the problems I've had with my M8, my proactivity hasn't always produced a positive, or timely, response.

 

One example:m I have been in touch with Leica, and the results have been inconsistent. Without naming names, at times certain individuals in Allendale were very helpful, and at other times, it felt as though they avoided me when there wasn't going to be a positive result. For example, when I sent my camera to Allendale on its way to Solms, I was assured that it would be returned to me in 5 weeks or less so I could use it on a long-planned assignment. It didn't show up on the repair docket in Solms for 4 weeks. I sent several very considerate e-mails to Allendale, trying to determine what was going on, and from that point got no response from my original contact. I then started trying some alternate contacts, and they did get back to me.

 

I know they are swamped. I understand that. But it's a two-way street--being pro-active doesn't always get results.

[ddp]

Afaik Leica NJ has loaners for pro's. .

 

This is a gray area. When my R8 & MP went in for Passport service, my dealer lent me replacements as needed. I didn't push for Leica to give me loaners - but that is due to the fact my dealer had the ability to help out. I live in NJ....and I am fairly certain Leica does not have the same type of deal that Nikon or Canon does.

[Eoin]

Again, many of us have taken a proactive approach. Being proactive is great as long as it produces a response. With regard to the problems I've had with my M8, my proactivity hasn't always produced a positive, or timely, response.

 

One example:m I have been in touch with Leica, and the results have been inconsistent. Without naming names, at times certain individuals in Allendale were very helpful, and at other times, it felt as though they avoided me when there wasn't going to be a positive result. For example, when I sent my camera to Allendale on its way to Solms, I was assured that it would be returned to me in 5 weeks or less so I could use it on a long-planned assignment. It didn't show up on the repair docket in Solms for 4 weeks. I sent several very considerate e-mails to Allendale, trying to determine what was going on, and from that point got no response from my original contact. I then started trying some alternate contacts, and they did get back to me.

 

I know they are swamped. I understand that. But it's a two-way street--being pro-active doesn't always get results.

 

It must be an Allendale thing, I've communicated with Solms and always got answers I required at the time.

[carstenw]

(1) it's the lack of communication with it's users that l find irritating

 

(2) no doubt l will be corrected if wrong, but a substantial proportion of Leica's market use these forums, and therefore any customer orientated company would use that to it's advantage. Not dear old Leica it appears to pretend that we don't exist.

 

(3) Leica does not seem to understand that if you communicated with this forum regularly in relation to problems, then they have lots to gain and nothing to lose

 

(4) I for one don't like being taken for granted, and that's how l feel. I will not be treated by Leica like a mushroom ( left to my own devices in the dark )

 

(5) l don't care where Leica have come from ; l'm not interested in their inexperience with digital ; l am not interested in the numerouse excuses you get from software people - when l pay out £3,000.00 for a cemera body, l expect it to work flawlessly.

 

(6) Leica is showing all the signs of an old style electronics company when fronted up by people like Sony - life would be so much better if these people (customers ) would go away and leave us to develop in peace. Look what happend to the market that Phillips had !

 

Some comments:

 

1) Leica communicates mostly via product releases, not memos, announcements or updates. This is not only typical for Leica, it is also typical for German companies, in my experience. You can choose to accept it, or get frustrated. I choose the former.

 

2) Keyword: "appears". This is clearly not the case, for anyone who can read between lines. I also don't see where you get your statistics from, other than some dark recess of your mind. Can you answer these two questions: how many M8 customers does Leica have? How many M8 owners read this forum? If you cannot answer both, you just made up a "fact".

 

3) They have something to lose: they can get sucked into endless debates with no real point. They are simply working on the problems, and keeping mum. Something you do not seem to understand, but which is not without merit. They are trying to answer the question "where is the beef?" by serving it up, while you want to *discuss* the whereabouts of the beef. Something very different.

 

4) Do you really need so much attention? It sounds very childish, to be honest.

 

5) This is completely unrealistic. You appear to have no appreciation for the complexity of a modern camera. I strongly suggest that you do not pay out £3,000.00 for a camera body, but simply buy cheap cameras. That way you will get what you expect.

 

6) Is there a point here? I don't think so.

 

Sorry for sounding so abrasive, but your post shows a spectacular lack of comprehension of the old saying: different strokes for different folks. Normally I try to stay out of pissing matches, but this post just rubs me the wrong way.

 

Next you will probably tell me that Leica will have to play your way to survive, and I will answer: look at their sales. They are selling everything they can make at the moment. Their way of life has been vindicated. They may lose you: so be it.

 

Philip, this wasn't mean in a personal way, believe it or not. I don't know you, and for all I know you could be a wonderful person. But in this post, I just read impatience and a misplaced sense of entitlement and that is what I am responding to.

[sandymc]

Afaik Leica NJ has loaners for pro's.

 

I accept that I may be in a minority of one on this, but I find that disgraceful. While I accept that pros lose money if their kit isn't working, and better service for pros is common in the industry, everybody pays the same for a Leica product. Service level should also should be the same.

 

Sandy

[jaapv]

I see what you mean, but I fear that is standard practice in most branches where equipment is used by professionals and amateurs alike.

[carstenw]

Sandy, I am not really a pro, and could benefit from such an arrangement, but two things speak against it: there are too many non-pros for it to be practical, and working pros pay back Leica by increased exposure, something which non-pros do not.

[parigby]

Carstein,

 

So you are happy to accept any product produced by Leica no matter what. If the Sales Director of Leica has read these posts, no doubt you are by now on his Christmas card list.

 

As you seem to be getting slightly, and l emphasis slightly, personal .... has it not occured to you that when you launch a product, there should be no problems. If there are, expect some flak. whilst some of your market maybe happy to pay top dollar to be Beta testers, others may not be.

 

I earnt my £3,000 by providing to my clients a first class error free service ; when l spend that £3,000 l expect the same in return.

[sandymc]

Well, I'm anything but a pro:D , but my experience of Nikon anyway is that if you have put your hand deep enough in your pocket to buy their top-of-the-line equipment, they really come to the party on service, regardless of what they might think your status is.

 

Sandy

[parigby]

Carsten,

 

Sorry for spelling your name wrong.

 

 

philip

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