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Help needed: real world M9 Moire problems


nikonuser2012

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If you've not suffered it, that's not evidence that it doesn't exist, I'm afraid. :)

 

I agree with Rolo. The M9 is far from immune to moire and, in my experience, seems more prone to it than the M8 (which is a bit odd because the M9 has more pixels and is a hair less sharp at the pixel level). I encounter it reasonably frequently in good light (or where flash plays a significant role). Shoot something with a fine regularly patterned texture using a 50 Summilux at F5.6 and 1/1000 is almost guaranteed to show some undesirable moire effect. Whilst not a deal breaker, I do consider moire to be the closest thing to being the M9's Achilles' heel - more of a problem IMO than the much complained about low light capability. Helpfully, most of the event type stuff I have done (where I'm likely to encounter the problem with fine patterned textures) is often in lowish light where I'm shooting handheld at slower shutter speeds and wide-open (or close to wide-open). This unintentionally provides enough blur to keep moire at bay.:)

Edited by wattsy
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Ever tried shooting shiny silver suits (or any moiré-prone subject) with the M9 in JPG or DNG+JPG format? If not then try it, you might get surprised.

 

Interesting.

No, I only ever shoot DNG compressed.

 

Are you advising that the in-camera JPG processing overcomes moire ? If so, I thank you as that's very valuable to me as I regarded the M9 as unfit for my purpose because of moire, and considered selling up . :)

 

I have wondered whether a low level, soft focus filter ( a moire filter) would help, if available ?

 

I think that Leica should have a fix for this, either software plug-in, PShop Action, or a screw-in AA lens filter.

Edited by Rolo
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Sounds like the sharpness mania is so stong nowadays that some photogs are simply unable to see what's obvious to others. Their clients won't see it either hopefully...

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Are you advising that the in-camera JPG processing overcomes moire ?

 

It doesn't overcome moire as such but in-camera jpegs are inherently less sharp than DNG files and this is likely to help with very finely textured cloth like shiny suits. It's an interesting idea but I shoot DNG+JPG as standard and can confirm that, in most cases, if you see moire in the DNG you will also see it in the jpeg.

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I have wondered whether a low level, soft focus filter would help, if available ?

 

It probably would help but then you lose a major advantage of shooting Leica glass.

 

Thinking aloud (I haven't consciously tried it or thought it through) but what also might help is to shoot at a significantly higher ISO than you might otherwise do (it might require ND filters to do this). The extra noise might be enough to mitigate the interference that would otherwise create the moire?

 

The only in-camera solution I know which does generally reduce the incidence and severity of moire (for obvious reasons) is to shoot with less DOF but this isn't always acceptable (from a composition/'artistic choice' point of view) or practical if you want to be fairly sure of good focus in a dynamic situation.

 

Maybe drinking more coffee is the answer?;)

Edited by wattsy
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Have you tried the 'anti-moire' brush in the LR 4 beta? It works well in my experience with the M8, but I've not come across anything as bad as those.

 

Yep, doesn't touch it. Only solution so far has been to remove the colour and then rebuild it with the Stamp and Patch tools in Photoshop.

 

It's a big nuisance for me as I'll present, say, 500 proof images to a client for selection, for a final choice of around a hundred images that I'll do whatever is necessary to fix. But, if I show this level of moire in the proofs it's not sending the right message, so I end up spending time doing some salvage work on the few proofs where it's unacceptable.

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It probably would help but then you lose a major advantage of shooting Leica glass.

 

Thinking aloud (I haven't consciously tried it or thought it through) but what also might help is to shoot at a significantly higher ISO than you might otherwise do (it might require ND filters to do this). The extra noise might be enough to mitigate the interference that would otherwise create the moire?

 

I hear you, but Leica glass is wasted when this is the output. I was thinking of using a filter only for the shots where this fabric is present. If the filter was just an AA filter, perhaps the result wouldn't influence the image too much. I wasn't thinking of a Hasselblad Softar. :D

 

The high ISO suggestion is also an interesting straw for a man drowning.

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Are you advising that the in-camera JPG processing overcomes moiré?

Yes, exactly. It's not perfect but pretty good; whether it's good enough for those shiny fabrics remains to be tested. Of course, it will reduce the sharpness at pixel level, pretty much similar to what a (weak) hardware anti-aliasing filter would do. Automatic in-camera real-time software moiré suppression does not come for free.

 

When shooting DNG+JPG then it's very easy, in Photoshop, to put the JPEG version in a layer over the image derived from the DNG file using an all-black ('Hide All') layer mask and then brush the moiré suppression from the JPEG file into the image only where needed.

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I don't understand why but it's been my experience that when I actually print a photograph the moire is no longer there. I haven't had moire for quite a while but when I did have it with bricks on a building for example although I would see it on the monitor the print looked perfectly normal. Is this because moire is a factor of the file and digital display process or was it due to some correction by the printing program? Did I just get lucky and it makes no sense at all? I process using CS5 and I print using Qimage.

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I don't understand why but it's been my experience that when I actually print a photograph the moire is no longer there. I haven't had moire for quite a while but when I did have it with bricks on a building for example although I would see it on the monitor the print looked perfectly normal. Is this because moire is a factor of the file and digital display process or was it due to some correction by the printing program? Did I just get lucky and it makes no sense at all? I process using CS5 and I print using Qimage.

 

Printing inherently softens the image slightly due to ink spread so that's part of it. Resolution of the image, the device used to record and view it, image/lens sharpness, etc. all play a part.

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Moire is a real issue to be managed with the M9, in my experience. These pics illustrate how much of a problem it can be and whilst the colour can be removed the pattern can only be cloned away. I have many similar shots. Capture One, Lightroom and RAW Developer will not correct it.

 

I've shown some consecutive images because these cannot easily be repeated during a moving event. The car shots can be repeated and are not important to me as such, but a product photographer might have his shoot ruined by these results.

 

Clearly, these types of materials can be a problem with the M9 and my solution is to exchange the M9 for a film MP when I come across shiny silver suits.

 

If you've not suffered it, that's not evidence that it doesn't exist, I'm afraid. :)

 

Rolo, thanks for the real world examples. I have been reading a lot lately an still flip flopping on the model. Nikon sure hasn't made it easy.

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Automatic in-camera real-time software moiré suppression does not come for free.

 

Nor is it very effective. I wouldn't rule it out helping with very finely textured fabrics like the shiny suits but I personally wouldn't rely on it. The 100% crops below show how effective the JPEG "in-camera real-time software moiré suppression" can be for a rather mild example of the problem.

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I'm not convinced there's any "anti-moiré" going on in the internal JPEG algorithm. Rather, a byproduct of image compression imparting its own "pattern" that might hide it some instead. Though while JPEG is lossy, it compresses areas of high detail less than simpler or larger areas without as much detail.

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Is the moire effect exaggerated by Asph lenses, I wonder ?

 

Ian, or anyone else, have you got the opportunity to same subject with a similar pre-Asph ? Thanks.

 

Yesterday, I shot some studio child portrait prep shots with a 50mm Asph. I noticed on the LCD, blue and yellow fringing on the ends of some furry fabric strands on a toy. Maybe moire, but not certain. Later, in exactly the same situation I changed to a 90mm Elmarit and there was no evidence of the fringing at all.

Edited by Rolo
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