carstenw Posted February 25, 2007 Share #1 Posted February 25, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am looking for more in-depth references on how to learn to perform rangefinder adjustments on recent M cameras. I am losing patience with Leica at the moment, having sent by now my 50 Lux Asph, my M8 and my M6 to Solms, and I still can't focus them right. I also have a 35 Cron Asph, which generally works better than the 50 Lux Asph, but which also isn't perfect. I adjusted the infinity adjustment on the M8 to be dead-on, and the M6 came back with this already working. The cameras focus fine at infinity, but both cameras have a slight (M6) or medium (M8) offset in the rangefinder which makes it harder to know when things are exactly focused, since the images never exactly align. It takes so bloody long for my cameras to come back from Solms at the moment that I don't want to send anything away any more, but I don't want to give up, so I am trying to learn it myself. I bought the "Leica Camera Repair Handbook" but it doesn't have enough information. What I am looking for is how to set up both vertical and horizontal alignment. I also need to know what procedures Leica goes through to set up a camera. I understand that they have a jig in which they place the cameras, but I will have to replace this with experimentation and trial-and-error, as well as knowledge of how it all works. As I understand, Leica makes sure that the focus is on at 1m, 10m and infinity? I also understand that older and newer Leica M cameras have different ways of adjusting the vertical offset, but that the adjustment is generally accessed through the red dot. Can anyone help me out with more information, books, sources, tools, anything? I want to get my cameras focusing as well as possible, without another 5-week trip to Solms, and without bothering my dealer any further. They have been super-helpful, but ultimately they are as helpless in this as I am. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Hi carstenw, Take a look here Leica M rangefinder adjustment. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted February 25, 2007 Share #2 Posted February 25, 2007 This is something to leave to the experts, IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 25, 2007 Share #3 Posted February 25, 2007 Agree with Andy, and if I'd shelled out for an M8 I wouldn't want to invalidate my warranty.....even if you did manage to adjust the rangefinder Leica could refuse to make any future repairs under warranty if they could see that the camera has been tampered with. Send the M8 back and have the M6 looked at by a specialist independant repairer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodaktrix Posted February 26, 2007 Share #4 Posted February 26, 2007 Carsten, have look here: Leica FAQ - DIY rangefinder adjustment vertical allignment is through the leica dot or screw. horizontal allignment is done on the roller screw of the rangefinder coupler. For the newer rangefinders (I guess M4-P up) You need a special tool that fits into the D-shape with the hole (golden shine). The diameter of the tool is 2,5mm at the base, the round excentric pin is 1,5mm in diameter and 1mm in height. access is through the Leica dot as usual. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/17216-leica-m-rangefinder-adjustment/?do=findComment&comment=183033'>More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 26, 2007 Author Share #5 Posted February 26, 2007 Andy and James, the point is that I want to become that expert. The only independent I know of is in Holland, and I don't have an address. I had to wait nearly six weeks for my M8 and 50 Lux Asph to return, and they still couldn't focus right. Then I had to wait another six weeks for my M6 to return, and it still has a slight vertical offset. I won't know if it focuses correctly until I develop a film. What do I hope to gain by sending it in again? I am not into praying that it somehow comes back right next time. I have once completely rebuilt a motorcycle engine, right down to replacing the bearings around the crankshaft, so I do have enough mechanical skill to pull it off. I just need to figure out how to do it, and I am willing to experiment with the adjustments to get it right. It is, after all, only adjustments, not a complete rebuild. Oliver, thanks for the picture of the tool. I presume I have to order such a device from Leica. Do you know how I go about that? I guess I will also need replacement red dots. Am I right in thinking that there are just three adjustments: the tool for the vertical offset, the eccentric on the wheel for infinity, and the pivot on the arm for the near-infinity adjustment? I guess the last one is the tricky one, since the wheel will need to be compensated for every adjustment of the pivot. Is there also a near-far balance adjustment for the vertical offset? At the moment it seems that the vertical offset is worse up close, but I don't know if this will be the case once correctly adjusted. How did you learn this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodaktrix Posted February 26, 2007 Share #6 Posted February 26, 2007 Carsten, I just googled for "M6 rangefinder adjustment". If You do not have a very strong horizontal offset, leave Your fingers off the screw of the arm, it has to be accessed through the bottom of Your camera. If You have a slight horizontal offset go for the screw of the wheel (that touches the lens cam), it can be accessed through the camera mount without taking anything apart. The special tool is very expensive (about 300 Euros), I will use a 2,5mm brass tube and cut the pin out. It will not sit as tight as the original tool, but it will fit for smaller adjustments. The moving lenght for adjustments in that construction is very small anyway, smaller than in the older Ms (M1-M4-2) with the normal slit screw. Regards Oliver Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted February 26, 2007 Share #7 Posted February 26, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Carstenw I have a workshop manual for the M3 and in it it has the proper adjustment instruction for that model RF. But you also need the proper gages/guides/jiggs to do a proper job on the near/far/infinity adjustments. And in that manual and with all film camera they used a jig that had a ground glass screen that fit at the film plain. The verticle adjustment should be good throughout the range. In other words if it's good at near objects it should be good at far object. If your camera isn't then there is something wrong with the rangefinder because there is NO user or factory adjustment to that without taking the camera top off and maybe even taking the RF apart. Or you need to start using a diopter to get the viewfinder more in focus to your eye at all object distances. I really think that since the release of the M8 Leica is finding that there lens QC is not what they thought it was. I have even been told by Leica NJ that they are having many problems with certain lenses when used on the M8. When that same lens is used on a 35mm film M between the none instant feed back and the size of the negative the focus discrepancy does not show up as it does on a image you look at on the camera LCD or a computer monitor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 26, 2007 Author Share #8 Posted February 26, 2007 Ed, it could easily be that I just perceive the vertical offset as being different. Presumably once the adjustment has been made, it will then run strictly horizontally. Although I don't have a jig, I probably don't need one. With my M6, I think I only need the vertical adjustment, but even if the horizontal one is a bit out, the thickness of the film emulsion might well hide it. With the M8 one no longer needs the jig, if there is enough patience to cover trial-and-error. With instant review, it ought to be doable, and this was how I adjusted the wheel last time. Is there any way you could scan the page with the arm-adjustment of the horizontal offset? That is the only part I am unsure of so far. Oliver, the arm screw is the one which worries me the most, apart from getting off the Leica red dot I will double-check all my tests, but I do believe that the M8 is out on that adjustment, so I will need to adjust it if I am to get proper focusing. I did double-check the adjustment of it when I originally twiddled to get perfect infinity focus, and at around 1m, the 50 Lux Asph is off by 2-3cm, which is rather a lot, and enough that I always get unsharp eyes at portrait distances. I have toyed with the idea of re-tuning the wheel so that the focusing is perfect at portrait distance, but having it be off further away does not appeal either. In the end, I might just pay a trip to the older gentleman in Karlsruhe who a member recommended, but I suppose that I will never be satisfied with the state of affairs as long as Leica takes 6 weeks to return a camera, and not necessarily fixed. In this scenario, I really prefer to be in personal control of the tuning. 300 Euros is expensive, but if once I have had the vertical adjustment fixed once, it should go out again, I will likely spring for it. Maybe I can then recover the money by tuning the verticals for friends. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted February 26, 2007 Share #9 Posted February 26, 2007 Carstenw check your PM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Posted February 28, 2007 Share #10 Posted February 28, 2007 hello Carsten i suspect the person in the Netherlands you're looking for is Will van Manen. You can find him on index.html. I have just had an M3 and M4 CLAd by him. Cost was approx 160 euro per camera, and i'm very pleased with the result. I'm in no way associated to him by the way. Rik Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_donatellobirsa Posted February 28, 2007 Share #11 Posted February 28, 2007 I,m sorry for your trouble with the M6/M8, Carsten! I think it’is a nice idea to learn to perform rangefinder adjustments, if you are have enough mechanical skill. You say: <<I had to wait nearly six weeks for my M8 and 50 Lux Asph to return, and they still couldn't focus right.>> …<< at around 1m, the 50 Lux Asph is off by 2-3cm, which is rather a lot, and enough that I always get unsharp eyes at portrait distances>> .. . You should first control your Lux on a M Body that has a rangefinder witch focus exactly. If still the lux das’nt focus correctly between 0.70m - 1 meter (usually the most critical range, we could have front focus, sometimes, I experimented this with some preasp Lux), then is the cam of the lens, not the rangefinder, to be out. Unfortunatly (or fortunatly) the M8 das show istantly that the image is not in focus (of corse if the M8 and the photographer!is spot on), and you could not anymore think you can’t be able to focus correctly Anfortunatly there some lenses, above all: 75 Lux, 50 Noctilux F/1, the last preasph 50lux (70 cm minimum focus), that can hove some nasty problems with the rangefinder cam. Not all lenses, not at all distances, they focus correctly … To learn to perform rangefinder adjustments you should read: Gino Ferzetti: <<Conoscere le Leica>> an old italian text, never translated in english, unfortunatly. An excellent place" for repairing old Leicas in Italy”, , is SAMCA in >Genova SAMCA (S.N.C.) VIA DEI LANDI 15 R 16151 Genova Tel.(PH): 39 010 412237 They can securly even perform the rangefinder of the M8. You have to wait a month or more, perhaps, but when your M is back, you can be sure that your rangefinder is spot on, and then verify if the cam of your lenses is OK … Good lack! Ciao, Donatello Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share #12 Posted February 28, 2007 Thanks for the Italian and Dutch addresses. Perhaps it is time for some travelling? With respect to tuning the arm, is there anyone here who has done this? I don't mean the wheel or the vertical adjustment, but the elbow of the arm. I am wondering what the best way is to make small adjustments to the "excentric cam 17-26" (sic) once the screw has been loosened... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted February 28, 2007 Share #13 Posted February 28, 2007 Ed, it could easily be that I just perceive the vertical offset as being different. Presumably once the adjustment has been made, it will then run strictly horizontally. Carsten I just got a 1.25X magnifier and when using it I have noticed a verticle offset with my M8 at certain times and with certain subjects. I first noticed it when trying to focus on a object that was lit from the side and above and I was looking/focusing at a down angle to the subject. I did some more testing and determined that it was the rangefinder window offset, the distance from the actual viewfinder window, that was causing it along with the way the light hit the subject. When focusing on something straight on and lit from the front equally I did not notice the verticle offset. I beleive if you do a similar test you will find the same thing. Also as you focus nearer or farther then the actual focus point the verticle alignment will shift slightly. I had a hard time figuring this out when I was adjusting one of my M3's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share #14 Posted February 28, 2007 I have been detecting the vertical offset at night, with a point light several hundred meters or more away. This way it is very easy to see. Of course, even if you can't see it directly, it still makes it harder to focus, because the overlap is then not perfect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peekpt Posted July 15, 2011 Share #15 Posted July 15, 2011 I had a slightly miss aligned vertical and horizontal calibration, so I decided to get to Leica representative here in Portugal for calibration. The price is 45€+vat, so it's less than the price of the tool and calibrated by optical machine. It took 4 days. So people who is thinking do it yourselves, this is a precision calibration, you probably will not need to do it again in your life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
perb Posted July 15, 2011 Share #16 Posted July 15, 2011 The adjustment of the rangefinder is a simple four step process: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/132070-trying-understand-rangefinder-misalignment.html#post1387557 After reading the above linked post, read the whole thread and you will find more detail on the procedure, with links to other useful threads Regards Per Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted July 15, 2011 Share #17 Posted July 15, 2011 I was speaking to one of the guys in the repair centre of the Leica shop in London. He told me that whilst some of the older film cameras could be adjusted manually he wouldn't recommend touching the M9 or M8. He said that Leica have in SOLMS a laser setup that is specially made for digital and its impossible to do it properly without that system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 15, 2011 Share #18 Posted July 15, 2011 umm-no They have a huge optical target set up. And there are quite a few third party servicecentres doing the adjusting of M8 and M9 - quite good too. They use laser gear to calibrate the sensor. That an outside centre would not be able to do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 15, 2011 Share #19 Posted July 15, 2011 You don't need any kind of special jig or calibration instrumentation to adjust the M rangefinder. All you need is a lens you know is correctly calibrated (preferably a 50 if you want to do it like the "pros":D), and with film bodies, a piece of ground glass (taped across the film rails, back off, shutter open on "B" with a locking cable release) and a magnifier/loupe. Digital bodies you only need the trustable lens, in fact enlarging the image on the LCD works very accurately, reserving the computer for final check. The adjustment jig is "needed" mainly for LTM bodies where you can't fit a ground glass across the film plane, and if you're in the repair business and time is money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 15, 2011 Share #20 Posted July 15, 2011 Remember, the film plane is behind the inner rails of the film guide. I've forgotten the distance, but the ground glass has to be something like 0.1 mm behind the rails. If you focus with the ground glass at the level of the inner rails, you'll be off from design standard and won't be able to get the lens to line up with both film and digital cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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