sblitz Posted February 7, 2012 Share #41 Posted February 7, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) been reading through this quickly, so apologies if this has been written, but the leica 21mm vf has a slight offset to adjust for the shoe not being directly above the lens. Considering how the internal framelines are more guidance than exact, not sure why an external vf being a bit off is such a problem. besides, with 21mm there is more often than not a bit extra than can be cropped. one man's opinion in any event. steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Hi sblitz, Take a look here 21 for My M9. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
satureyes Posted February 8, 2012 Share #42 Posted February 8, 2012 I got the 21mm se 3.4 today. I'm going to use it without a finder. I'm going to unashamedly use the lousy LCD of my £5000 digital camera to asses the framing. I don't care how 'un-Leica' purist that is. I cannot justify £650 for a viewfinder. I can justify paying for exquisite lenses- but methinks someone in Solms is having a bit of a giggle at some accessory costs. I figured moving my eye between an external and internal viewfinder is just as reliable and 'accurate' as checking the LCD screen. So there. Now play nicely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill W Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share #43 Posted February 8, 2012 I got the 21mm se 3.4 today. I'm going to use it without a finder. I'm going to unashamedly use the lousy LCD of my £5000 digital camera to asses the framing. I don't care how 'un-Leica' purist that is. I cannot justify £650 for a viewfinder. I can justify paying for exquisite lenses- but methinks someone in Solms is having a bit of a giggle at some accessory costs. I figured moving my eye between an external and internal viewfinder is just as reliable and 'accurate' as checking the LCD screen. So there. Now play nicely. I would really like to know what you think about the lens, I am trying to get one but I know they are in limited supply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted February 8, 2012 Share #44 Posted February 8, 2012 been reading through this quickly, so apologies if this has been written, but the leica 21mm vf has a slight offset to adjust for the shoe not being directly above the lens. Considering how the internal framelines are more guidance than exact, not sure why an external vf being a bit off is such a problem. besides, with 21mm there is more often than not a bit extra than can be cropped. one man's opinion in any event. steve I have that finder before me. Where is the offset? Or do you mean that, not the finder but the frame is 'offset' to compensate? There's no evidence of that, either. Such an offset would work only for one specific distance. The framing would be off for all other distances. I don't believe this. But i agree with you that the 'problem' is a largely imagined one and I have actually said so. The old man: "I'm from Sweden, show me" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted February 8, 2012 Share #45 Posted February 8, 2012 Bill, it's a super lens. Optically and mechanically. Forget about stopping down – it's perfect at f:3.4. The old man from the Age of the 21mm Contax Biogon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted February 8, 2012 Share #46 Posted February 8, 2012 I got the 21mm se 3.4 today. I'm going to use it without a finder. I'm going to unashamedly use the lousy LCD of my £5000 digital camera to asses the framing. I don't care how 'un-Leica' purist that is. I cannot justify £650 for a viewfinder. I can justify paying for exquisite lenses- but methinks someone in Solms is having a bit of a giggle at some accessory costs. Buy a CV plastic finder, its cheap cheerful and stops chimping. They really are OK and do a fine job (but so would a rectangluar piece of bent wire jammed into the hotshoe compared to no finder at all). Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted February 8, 2012 Share #47 Posted February 8, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Satureyes – you have bought yourself a 5000$ camera and you are going to shoot it blind. Congratulations on your economic perspicacity. Or is it just laziness? The old man from the Age of the Brilliant Finder Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted February 8, 2012 Share #48 Posted February 8, 2012 I now mainly use the new Leica 21mm metal finder. For the type of shooting, I use 21mm for the bet finder to use would actually be a Konica 21/35 finder, that came with the Konica Dual 21-35 lens. I prefer the Leica finder mainly because of handling (the packaging and handling of mounting, unmounting, when changing lenses is quick and easy with the supplied leather pouch). The real seller on this finder to me though is it's compact build, catching less on things (clothing/ bag) and poking less out of the back of the body (I am a left eye shooter). The Konica is much better in magnification (higher), eye point (better for anticipating action and relaxed shooting, as you don't have to press the camera into your eye ball and can handle the camera more freely, while framing quick shots). I never liked the Voigtlander finders (highest distortion, less secure in hotshoe, exposed, convex optical elements, prone to smudging, nicking and scratching, bad handling). I leave the Frankenfinder now largely at home, but not because of bulk, but because I found a lens/ body pairing, that works for me, where I mostly just need one 21mm external finder. What many skeptics of external finders misunderstand is, that in certain situations, your external finder effectively becomes your PRIMARY finder - there is no switching back and forth between finders. Focussing and metering works largely by feel and experience with the lens in use and a need of precisely focussing on the millimeter is simply lesser, than the importance of good framing in difficult situations. It took less than 30 sec from spotting a group of bikers, circumventing heavy traffic on a main road in Shanghai by riding in the opposite lane to jumping over the fencing, presetting the camera and shooting three shots. Without an external finder, showing me precisely enough, what I will have in my pictures, I would have nothing. Rangefinder Parallax not precise enough? Pffft…! Too uncomfortable changing from one finder to another? Hehe! Focussing not precise enough? Who cares? Untitled by teknopunk.com, on Flickr I'd say, get the best external finder, you can afford, not the cheapest deal or the most affordable one, you want to carry in the bag, "just in case"! Mount it and USE IT! The lesser an external finder you get from the get go, the least, the chances, you enjoy using it and finding, how fantastic a tool like the external finders can be! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted February 8, 2012 Share #49 Posted February 8, 2012 Satureyes – you have bought yourself a 5000$ camera and you are going to shoot it blind. Congratulations on your economic perspicacity. Or is it just laziness? The old man from the Age of the Brilliant Finder Not exactly the words, I would choose, but the point is exactly that I make. Without an external finder with a 21mm lens on a M9, one is using at most half the potential of such a wide lens. Except of course, shooting the 21mm is more of a stationary affair, where quick shooting doesn't matter and one has the time to set up, guesstimate and chimp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satureyes Posted February 8, 2012 Share #50 Posted February 8, 2012 Satureyes – you have bought yourself a 5000$ camera and you are going to shoot it blind. Congratulations on your economic perspicacity. Or is it just laziness? The old man from the Age of the Brilliant Finder Why is is shooting blind? There are 28mm frame lines - so there's a sort of small guide - but I have the screen. I can check the shot. I don't think there's that much difference between focussing, moving to the external VF composing, then back to the internal one again. Probably quicker to fire off a shot and have a look at the screen - purely for composition? I dont understand why its SO wrong to 'chimp'. I really don't have an issue with people seeing me looking at an LCD screen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoarFM Posted February 8, 2012 Share #51 Posted February 8, 2012 Bill, Your zenfolio looks wonderful. Another reminder that I need to get organized with my online presentation. As to the finder... I recently added the 21 SEM and with it I bought the Zeiss finder not only because I thought it a little pound-foolish to put a $3000 lens on my $7000 camera and try to save by going without the viewfinder. I bought the Zeiss because it received some favorable comments here and yet was "only" $420... The lens is spectacular, making me wonder if something isn't wrong with my 28 elmarit ASPH. Kind of different doing the 2 step focus, exposure and then frame through a different eyepiece but I am very glad that I have at least some type of finder that is designed for the 21mm fov. Here are a couple of night expoure pix with the 21 included for no special reason I am going to get a 21 for my M9 and will also get an external finder. Looking at the offerings on ebay, there are some that are $275 and others that are $700+. Are there any appreciable differences between them. Is it plastic versus metal or is there some other optical thing. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/171903-21-for-my-m9/?do=findComment&comment=1921353'>More sharing options...
Bill W Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share #52 Posted February 8, 2012 Bill, Your zenfolio looks wonderful. Another reminder that I need to get organized with my online presentation. As to the finder... I recently added the 21 SEM and with it I bought the Zeiss finder not only because I thought it a little pound-foolish to put a $3000 lens on my $7000 camera and try to save by going without the viewfinder. I bought the Zeiss because it received some favorable comments here and yet was "only" $420... The lens is spectacular, making me wonder if something isn't wrong with my 28 elmarit ASPH. Kind of different doing the 2 step focus, exposure and then frame through a different eyepiece but I am very glad that I have at least some type of finder that is designed for the 21mm fov. Here are a couple of night expoure pix with the 21 included for no special reason Thanks for looking at my Zenfolio. I need to update though. I bought the Leica finder used off ebay and it should be here today. Now I need to get the 21 but I am wanting the new one which is in short supply. Great night shots. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted February 8, 2012 Share #53 Posted February 8, 2012 I dont understand why its SO wrong to 'chimp'. I really don't have an issue with people seeing me looking at an LCD screen. It is perfectly all right if (a) you have a perfectly stationary subject, and ( you have the camera on a tripod. Else, as you look at the monitor, you change the direction of the camera, and starts the next exposure where you started the previos one – from scratch. Not trial and error, but error and error. And if the subject moves, or if you want to catch a 'decisive moment' – it is all gone when you have come back from the chimps. Catching the life around us is what the Leica has always been about. And that takes readiness, and speed. The old man with a camera in his hand Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satureyes Posted February 8, 2012 Share #54 Posted February 8, 2012 It is perfectly all right if (a) you have a perfectly stationary subject, and ( you have the camera on a tripod. Else, as you look at the monitor, you change the direction of the camera, and starts the next exposure where you started the previos one – from scratch. Not trial and error, but error and error. And if the subject moves, or if you want to catch a 'decisive moment' – it is all gone when you have come back from the chimps. Catching the life around us is what the Leica has always been about. And that takes readiness, and speed. The old man with a camera in his hand But I don't get it- the moment has also gone by the time you frame- focus- frame again. Surely if something is moving that quickly the focus is most critical- frame the main subject within the 28mm lines and all will be good. I don't know why I'm having such trouble grasping this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted February 8, 2012 Share #55 Posted February 8, 2012 I don't know why I'm having such trouble grasping this? Hmm, well, have looked at the DOF scale on a 21mm lens? Zone focus and you will get almost everything important in focus at any normal f/stop, so you don't need to focus every time. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satureyes Posted February 8, 2012 Share #56 Posted February 8, 2012 Yes. The dof scale is pretty large to be fair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted February 9, 2012 Share #57 Posted February 9, 2012 With a 21mm lens I usually set the focus to 4m and the aperture to f:8 ("f:8 and be there" was the slogan of the old photojournalists). Even if our criterium is the smaller 1/60mm circle of confusion, that gives me satisfactory sharpness from 2m to infinity. With a 35mm lens this same formula works from 2.5m to c. 7m. This is called 'zone focusing' and is OK when content is paramount. It is faster than any autofocus or manual focus system, and this was why Henri Cartier-Bresson and countless other people used it. Maximum sharpness is always in the plane of set focus, of course, but maximum sharpness is often less important than action caught. "Sharpness is the fetish of boring photographers." Sorry, self-quote. The acceptably sharp old man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satureyes Posted February 9, 2012 Share #58 Posted February 9, 2012 I understand zone focussing- but still it seems that the forum members assume a few things that are common amongst Leica users: - we are mainly street photographers - we are too 'stealth' to be allowed to use the LCD. For the record, I'm neither. I have written about my lack of desire to do street photography in other threads but it does feel sometimes like the 'old guard' tend to be adamant that there are ways it 'just has to be done' because its a Leica. I hope the next M model doesn't send you into spasms of despair should it have any more electronic processing ;-) The young-ish man who likes silicon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted February 9, 2012 Share #59 Posted February 9, 2012 I admit I have not read every post so excuse me if this is now redundant. Here's a strong vote for the Zeiss 21 finder. It is extremely bright, by far the brightest of any external or internal finder I have seen. It also has superb clarity. The combo makes for the most enjoyable and user friendly experience. And for very ow light indoor work, I actually have put the Zeiss finder on when using other than 21 lenses just to get a better look at the scene! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satureyes Posted February 9, 2012 Share #60 Posted February 9, 2012 I admit I have not read every post so excuse me if this is now redundant. Here's a strong vote for the Zeiss 21 finder. It is extremely bright, by far the brightest of any external or internal finder I have seen. It also has superb clarity. The combo makes for the most enjoyable and user friendly experience. And for very ow light indoor work, I actually have put the Zeiss finder on when using other than 21 lenses just to get a better look at the scene! Ah- but what about all the apparent and much talked about 'problems' with parallax because of the alleged location of the ext vf on the hotshoe? R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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