earleygallery Posted December 4, 2011 Share #21 Posted December 4, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Since the people who actually buy and run the equipment (TSA) made those recommendations regarding scanning film, why wouldn't you believe them? I'm inclined to take manufacturers specifications at face value. I think your TSA are probably giving themselves a large margin of safety to reduce their liability in case of damage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Hi earleygallery, Take a look here film ruined by airport security. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
AlanG Posted December 5, 2011 Share #22 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) I'm inclined to take manufacturers specifications at face value. I think your TSA are probably giving themselves a large margin of safety to reduce their liability in case of damage. Putting liability asside, you seem to be saying there is a possibility of fogging from screening X-rays. You can do whatever you want, but when I traveled on assignments, I would never let film go through the X-rays. I surely didn't want to accept even a .001% chance of having to explain a fogging problem to my client and go back at my own expense if there was a problem. And now photographers can just point to the TSA information if any of the screeners is hesitant to provide a hand inspection. The necessity to carry film on board, due to the high power X-rays for checked luggage, was one of the factors that sped up my switch to digital photography. I'd generally have at least 100 rolls of 120 film and a dozen boxes of Polaroid on a typical small out of town project. I had given up traveling with 4x5 some time earlier. And while I'd check my lights, tripod, and misc, gear, I wanted the cameras and lenses in the cabin too. So even with a special coat that had many large pockets for the film and two carry on bags, this became a problem. Edited December 5, 2011 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted December 5, 2011 Share #23 Posted December 5, 2011 Putting liability asside, you seem to be saying there is a possibility of fogging from screening X-rays. ... No, you seem to be confused. James is saying there is very little chance of fogging from screening X-rays. Pete. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted December 5, 2011 Share #24 Posted December 5, 2011 Airport scanners are perfectly safe with films, even with multiple passes. If you put film in lead bags or similar, they just turn up the x-rays do that they can see inside. Agree completely with the first statement. As for the second, I have seen it written many times in internet forums but I believe it to be entirely false. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted December 5, 2011 Share #25 Posted December 5, 2011 Indeed, the baggage scanners you put your carry on bags through work at a set level, if something looks odd they don't 'turn it up', they pull to one side and inspect your bag by hand. Some more info here; HowStuffWorks "How Airport Security Works" 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted December 5, 2011 Share #26 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) No, you seem to be confused. James is saying there is very little chance of fogging from screening X-rays. Pete. Now you are getting me confused. Please explain the difference between "very little chance" and a possibility? What kind of chance would you be prepared to accept if a fair amount of money, time, and your reputation was on the line? (Assuming the assignment could even be re-shot if necessary.) Since hand inspection is an option, why would I consider allowing my film to go through an X-ray? Why would you? By the way, I visited the White House on the standard tour about a month ago. They have high security there of course even when the President and family is away. They don't even allow women to bring in hand bags. I put my keys through the X-ray scanner and they didn't catch my Leatherman tool which contains a small knife blade. (I forgot I had it.) I really can't imagine taking on the entire White House staff of guards with a 3" knife. Later that day I went to the Capitol and they caught it. The Capitol chambers does not even allow in car keys or fobs that have electronic buttons on them or anything with a battery for that matter. Edited December 5, 2011 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted December 5, 2011 Share #27 Posted December 5, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I traveled via Honk Kong from San Francisco. I had a M7, and a M4-2, both loaded with Tri-X 400. Each had at least a few exposures on the roll (greater than 12). When I got to my destination, in central China, I finished the rolls, in each respective cameras. When I had them developed the middle third of each roll was fully exposed. It was like someone had opened the camera, pulled out the film and rolled it back in. The cameras were in my carry on. Explain that? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted December 5, 2011 Share #28 Posted December 5, 2011 I never had xray issues with my film. Not even Delta3200 or Tmax3200. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted December 5, 2011 Share #29 Posted December 5, 2011 I traveled via Honk Kong from San Francisco. I had a M7, and a M4-2, both loaded with Tri-X 400. Each had at least a few exposures on the roll (greater than 12). When I got to my destination, in central China, I finished the rolls, in each respective cameras. When I had them developed the middle third of each roll was fully exposed. It was like someone had opened the camera, pulled out the film and rolled it back in. The cameras were in my carry on. Explain that? Yes, very odd. Why would the xrays choose that section of film? I guess that's proof that it wasn't caused by x-rays. Pete 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted December 5, 2011 Share #30 Posted December 5, 2011 Agree completely with the first statement. As for the second, I have seen it written many times in internet forums but I believe it to be entirely false. Thanks for the clarification. I've seen some bags remain in the scanner for a while and assumed that's what they were doing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted December 5, 2011 Share #31 Posted December 5, 2011 Yes, very odd. Why would the xrays choose that section of film? I guess that's proof that it wasn't caused by x-rays.Pete Exactly! Wow, great logic there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted December 5, 2011 Share #32 Posted December 5, 2011 I traveled via Honk Kong from San Francisco. I had a M7, and a M4-2, both loaded with Tri-X 400. Each had at least a few exposures on the roll (greater than 12). When I got to my destination, in central China, I finished the rolls, in each respective cameras. When I had them developed the middle third of each roll was fully exposed. It was like someone had opened the camera, pulled out the film and rolled it back in. The cameras were in my carry on. Explain that? Sounds like someone did open the cameras or the lab stuffed up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted December 5, 2011 Share #33 Posted December 5, 2011 Now you are getting me confused. Please explain the difference between "very little chance" and a possibility? What kind of chance would you be prepared to accept if a fair amount of money, time, and your reputation was on the line? (Assuming the assignment could even be re-shot if necessary.) Since hand inspection is an option, why would I consider allowing my film to go through an X-ray? Why would you? By the way, I visited the White House on the standard tour about a month ago. They have high security there of course even when the President and family is away. They don't even allow women to bring in hand bags. I put my keys through the X-ray scanner and they didn't catch my Leatherman tool which contains a small knife blade. (I forgot I had it.) I really can't imagine taking on the entire White House staff of guards with a 3" knife. Later that day I went to the Capitol and they caught it. The Capitol chambers does not even allow in car keys or fobs that have electronic buttons on them or anything with a battery for that matter. Again the info is out there. I recall that the scanners are safe for something like 10 passes of iso1600 film. Of course there is always the risk of the plane crashing, or the processing going wrong..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 5, 2011 Share #34 Posted December 5, 2011 Now you are getting me confused. Please explain the difference between "very little chance" and a possibility? What kind of chance would you be prepared to accept if a fair amount of money, time, and your reputation was on the line? (Assuming the assignment could even be re-shot if necessary.) Since hand inspection is an option, why would I consider allowing my film to go through an X-ray? Why would you? With X-trays it is an accumulative dose. Even one pass will have an effect, even if it is impossible to detect. The point at which the fogging becomes a problem will differ. Not only by the dosage received, but also by many other factors. The age of the film, the quality of the darkroom light, the parameters of the development, the subject matter, etc. So the possibility must be expressed as a certain level of risk, like in "very little chance". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted December 5, 2011 Share #35 Posted December 5, 2011 Sounds like someone did open the cameras or the lab stuffed up. Based on what I hear here, I would bet on the Lab, since I was the only one who touched the cameras. However it also happened to a roll of Tri-X 320 in my Rollei, using a different lab... but in the same carry on case. The loose film, i showed the agents, and they passed it around the scanner, and the issue has not happened with that film even though it was processed by the same lab at the same time... It just happened to the film in the cameras. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theendlesshouse Posted December 5, 2011 Share #36 Posted December 5, 2011 Read the link to the TSA I posted, it's all you need to know. I have never ever had any film fogging by following these simple guidelines; but as Jaapv says, it is a cumulative effect and it is very unlikely that it is going to blank your entire roll? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted December 5, 2011 Share #37 Posted December 5, 2011 Read the link to the TSA I posted, it's all you need to know. Assuming you trust the TSA. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted December 5, 2011 Share #38 Posted December 5, 2011 Where I work, bags or whatever one brings which may set off the metal detector (phones, keys etc) are x-rayed every day as one enters the building. Our security uses ordinary airport x-ray machines. I've brought film cameras with me numerous times and had no problem at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted December 5, 2011 Share #39 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) Assuming you trust the TSA. Well they pretty much advise you to have it hand inspected for various scenarios or if you have any other concerns. So why would you rather not spend a little bit of time and err on safety as they recommend? Do you think they are trying to deceive you for some reason? Likewise you could ignore other advice and store your film in a hot environment or use expired film on your shoots. Yes, the pictures may look ok even if the film is not up to its maximum quality. Any dosage of X-rays will knock some electrons from some bromine atoms onto some silver atoms forming a speck on some silver crystals. This speck is then expanded across the entire crystal via development. It is just a matter of the number of specks it takes before you see "unacceptable" fogging. And of course if fogging is not uniformly spread across the film as in the case of a roll that is X-rayed while spooled up, it may not take much fogging to create some kind of visible uneveness in broad smooth toned sections of a photo. Edited December 5, 2011 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted December 5, 2011 Share #40 Posted December 5, 2011 Alan - where were you when there was good news to be discussed about film? As a side issue, what's your take on the deleterious effect of air travel on digital sensors? I guess that's just a myth, in your opinion? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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