robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #61 Posted February 17, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) yeah I am not scapegoating leica at all, they made the camera, they are going to fix it. A lot of what i am saying is my opinion of the "ideology" of companies like Leica, Canon, Apple, etc. I agree with you magyarman, it is their job, not mine. But since i have a weekend, I am going to hack on it.. Do I expect it to work, not so much... Thank goodness for my analog turntable...going out to hunt for used viny. Maybe I should return all my CD's to the manufacturers because they sound like sh__. Bat has been charging for and hour now, and it is cold. this does not jive with any of my experiences with charging camera batteries. After it is charged I will measure the voltage. does anyone know what the nomimal voltage of the battery should be? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 17, 2007 Posted February 17, 2007 Hi robertwright, Take a look here another dead horse.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #62 Posted February 17, 2007 btw, I forgot to add, you think Canon is all hearts and unicorns? I set up an iPF5000 printer for a client of mine-that printer is a nightmare of software/hardware integration.... And they are largely silent to the users demands for better documentation, firmware, etc. Basically junk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJL Posted February 17, 2007 Share #63 Posted February 17, 2007 This truth, however when is mine tools break I gift to professionalist fixer. I dont want thing why is broke, I dont want find way how is need fix up, that is not mine responsable. I need just take another camera what I can make fotos for mine work. You also do this, this I understand you tell. What I do not understand why you spend it your mind to find way to fix up M8 instead you spend this time take more fotos what you got paid. For professionalist fotographer camera is plain tool for work. If is broke, need somebody else worry how supposed to fix up. Leica compagnie hears by this day many storys about broke M8, is they suppose come here and tell how is gonna fix up. Instead nobody who hear from them nothing. All is left plain guys like Guy and Sean try to help who got broke M8. This very nice they do this, they grate guys, however all what they can do just make it some guest. Leica got speciality equipments and science people suppose understand best how works M8. Why they do not say nothing? Blasko, No other way to say this.....I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you. A valuable point to all this trouble shooting is that a "professionalist fixer" could spend a very large amount of time looking for a problem that was NOT clearly explained to them. Not taking anything away from the technical folks at Leica or anywhere else. The same holds true if you bring your auto to a mechanic. If you just say "It does not work properly", the mechanic could wind up rebuilding the entire car before the problem was isolated. There is significant value in actual users of the M8 thinking through the things that may have led to a certain condition. It greatly enhances Leica's ability to focus on what some of the possible issues may truly be. Guy has good experience with the battery problems. I have come to appreciate that experience when my camera would act a bit strange. The battery seemed to be an critcal component. However, I still think that there are other related problems too, be it in the firmware or electrical contacts in the camera itself. They all have to work together, and something, every now and then, goes haywire a bit, causing a cascading of other problems, it seems. When I am working on an assignment or doing a shoot, I have a second or third camera in my bag, ready to use if my primary fails. It is safe to say that most mechanical and electronic things will fail at some point. I have had Nikons and Canons fail, or do some very strange things. I reached for my spare and kept working, but I also tried to figure out what was going on when the other one failed. In almost all of the problems I have had with my Canon 1-series cameras, it has almost always been related to battery contacts, charge, or electrical contacts from the lens to the camera. Canon has never, to my knowledge, ever talked openly about this, let alone suggest "fixes". Folks either figure things out and how to work with it, or they send the camera back for fixing. Most of the time, they have no idea what the "fix" was and just go back to using it until the problem possibly comes up again.This is pretty common among pros that shoot a lot and under a variety of conditions. When I am out in the middle of nowhere shooting, there is no "professionalist fixer" around, so I have to have some idea of how to make things work. That is life. That is also part of my work as a pro photographer. I deal with it. I am sorry if this sounds condescending to you or anybody else, but your posts have only looked for ways to tell folks, once again, the you do not own an M8 and think most of the rest of us are foolish to own one. Some, maybe an awful lot, of us realize that the camera is very capable, has some flaws that need to be fixed, and are interested in helping Leica, or anybody else in getting them fixed so that we can continue to enjoy or shooting. If you do not like the camera, do not plan to own one, fine, that is your choice. Your contributions to many of these threads, is at times just static, but I keep looking for you contribution. Have not found it yet. Sorry. LJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted February 17, 2007 Share #64 Posted February 17, 2007 This is off topic geek talk ... so ignore at your leisure Since you were able to update the firmware and still have the problem, it sounds like a hardware issue to me. By the way, CMOS processors behave differently than CMOS sensors in some important ways. We use CMOS in military and spaceborn applications (where fixing is out of the question) for its self healing properties if hit by EMP (Electro Magnetic Pulse) from a nuclear blast or EMP weapon. Since he can shoot pictures the CCD appears to be ok so it is likely some other circuit related to the rear LCD that has suffered damage. I would bet my boots that the CMOS military circuits you use are silicon on sapphire or used another form of dielectric isolation between the on chip active elements. The majority of CMOS circuits that are not radiation hardened use implanted/diffused isolation which is responsible for producing the 4 layer structure which can latch up. It's not only an ESD strike that can induce latch up. For example, if interconnected circuits power up in the wrong order after say a power down that can also be a problem. The circuit that powers up first can force current into an unpowered component and induce latchup. It's up to the circuit/system designer to account for these eventualities and design in safeguards. [/geek mode off] Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #65 Posted February 17, 2007 Robert geek mode on is really what we want. Let's here from the engineers and scientists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted February 17, 2007 Share #66 Posted February 17, 2007 Robert geek mode on is really what we want. Let's here from the engineers and scientists. Back to geek mode then: This posting http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/14145-uh-oh-me-too-4.html#post148356 by Mark Norton gave me cause for concern when I read it. Good electrical connection between the external case components is essential if the interior is to be maintained as an equipotential environment safe from external influence such as static. If there is significant impedance between items making up the case an ESD strike to any one of them could induce damaging internal voltage or current transients. That is unless Leica have a continuous integral internal shield that's independent from the external body metalwork. My M8 is black and I noticed the interior of the base plate is painted and the only way it could make good connection to the rest of the body is through the locking mechanism. I don't know the conductivity of the black chrome plating, I wonder if the failure rate or mode is different between black or silver chrome bodies? Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 17, 2007 Share #67 Posted February 17, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Interesting. The only time one of my camera's failed was when there were no spare batteries available and I was fooling around with a half/charged -half recharged etc. battery to keep the thing going. It may well be that the whole issue centres on the communication between the battery electronics and the camera. If those get out of sync the whole thing may go haywire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 18, 2007 Author Share #68 Posted February 18, 2007 Well I left the camera off all afternoon and charged the battery, and still it exhibits the same behaviours as before, so there is no progress to report. Brick is back in box. First M6 I ever had (used) the meter died. Guess I am the harbinger of death.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 18, 2007 Share #69 Posted February 18, 2007 Sorry to hear that Robert, I suspected as much but was worth the effort giving it a go. i would certainly return it since your well within the return period and let's hope the second one is much better. Good luck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 18, 2007 Share #70 Posted February 18, 2007 Interesting. The only time one of my camera's failed was when there were no spare batteries available and I was fooling around with a half/charged -half recharged etc. battery to keep the thing going. It may well be that the whole issue centres on the communication between the battery electronics and the camera. If those get out of sync the whole thing may go haywire. Jaap this was my driving point about the battery is there constant voltage being supplied or does it lose the comunication at some point with the camera. It 's all part of the problem that i suspect comes from a failure to maintain voltage to run it. Something in this area is were my suspicion lies and even static has that same mis- connect effect and can throw it in a tail spin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 18, 2007 Share #71 Posted February 18, 2007 Sean and Guy, here I need understand something. I understand for who got retireded ora some like stomotolog who got plenty money and time can happy spend his mind to thing how fix up camera. I also fotograpfer for professional, this I never no hear before mine life, professional fotographer who got in his mind spend it thing so much time about camera. I need it camera what is work, this is only. If was myself I gonna tell to Leica, you fix up, than I buy. Except before, I need take another marque becaus to make money ora mine family does not eat. How you two can to put your life behind camera which is in any minute can be good just for keep door open? Blasko, Do you want a serious answer to that question or are you mostly just trying to make a point? If you're seriously looking for an answer, I'll give you one. Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 18, 2007 Share #72 Posted February 18, 2007 maybe I'll try taking it in the shower with me to humidify it.,.. another thing I notice is that the screen never goes completely dark, it is always a very faint grey. which accounts for some of the warmth I think, it is always "on" and that is why the bat is depleting. You can't un-ring the bell with humidity but my question was serious. I just did a shoot in a building with wooden floors tonight and there was plenty of static electricity. My M8 froze once but a battery removal/reinsertion did the trick. Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Jones Posted February 18, 2007 Share #73 Posted February 18, 2007 Guy, with regard to your concern about the power issues, I have quite a bit of experience with microprocessor technology. A basic rule about processors is that they are either running or they aren't. These devices are fetching and executing thousands of instructions per second and will die quickly and completely if they cannot sustain this function. Power problems in a microprocessor system will kill this function very quickly. In fact, many system designs include circuitry to restart the micro should the power drop below a given level. Power problems are serious but are fairly easy to diagnose compared to some other issues a microprocessor based system could have. When my M8 started to exhibit the shutdown issue, I also was able to either take photos or operate menus in a mutually exclusive manner as others have done. I was actually quite pleased to see this behaviour because this told me that the processors were in fact running! My camera also got warm and I was glad to see this as well because the energy to raise the temperature of the camera had to come from somewhare and that was from the battery. A partially charged or dead battery could not deliver enough energy long enough to generate this heat which, as I remember and is confirmed by recent reports to be considerable. Just some thoughts. I do not pretend to know much about how Leica designed the operating system for this camera or the sub-processors involved but I suspect that Leica will discover a timing issue or I/O interface issue (such as reading the position of the on/off switch so as to generate a proper turn on sequence) as the problem. This may involve firmware, hardware, or a combination of the two. Also, with regard to static induced damage, consider that the entire camera is enclosed in a metallic shell. Faraday discovered long ago that such an environement was incredibly protective of objects inside. The static issue is more of a concern during the manufacture of the PCB (printed circuit board) than the final assembly. If these boards are damaged during manufacturing, then latent failures could indeed be an issue. Most manufacturing facilities however have extensive procedures in place to protect the PCB such as conductive flooring in the manufacturing area and requiring all personel to wear anti static heel straps on shoes which are tested when they enter the work area. Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 18, 2007 Share #74 Posted February 18, 2007 Thanks Michael for jumping in here. So my theory maybe a non theory, which is fine. Do you have any thoughts to the possible root cause Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 18, 2007 Share #75 Posted February 18, 2007 Also, with regard to static induced damage, consider that the entire camera is enclosed in a metallic shell. Faraday discovered long ago that such an environement was incredibly protective of objects inside. The static issue is more of a concern during the manufacture of the PCB (printed circuit board) than the final assembly. If these boards are damaged during manufacturing, then latent failures could indeed be an issue. Most manufacturing facilities however have extensive procedures in place to protect the PCB such as conductive flooring in the manufacturing area and requiring all personel to wear anti static heel straps on shoes which are tested when they enter the work area. Michael Michael, I'm not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination but my empirical experience with these cameras suggests that static may indeed be a factor in the lockups or failures and some other forum members have theorized as to how static might affect the data stored in the camera. I appreciate what you're saying, in theory, but there may be factors or scenarios you haven't yet considered. Again, empirical experience with the M8s in high static environments still tells me that its an area that needs to be looked at carefully. If nothing else, it needs to be fully eliminated as a possible factor before being dismissed. Naturally, even people with a great deal of knowledge of electronics, computers, etc. (certainly not including myself but perhaps including yourself and others on this forum) may often disagree on topics like this. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 18, 2007 Author Share #76 Posted February 18, 2007 Guy, with regard to your concern about the power issues, I have quite a bit of experience with microprocessor technology. A basic rule about processors is that they are either running or they aren't. These devices are fetching and executing thousands of instructions per second and will die quickly and completely if they cannot sustain this function. Power problems in a microprocessor system will kill this function very quickly. In fact, many system designs include circuitry to restart the micro should the power drop below a given level. Power problems are serious but are fairly easy to diagnose compared to some other issues a microprocessor based system could have. When my M8 started to exhibit the shutdown issue, I also was able to either take photos or operate menus in a mutually exclusive manner as others have done. I was actually quite pleased to see this behaviour because this told me that the processors were in fact running! My camera also got warm and I was glad to see this as well because the energy to raise the temperature of the camera had to come from somewhare and that was from the battery. A partially charged or dead battery could not deliver enough energy long enough to generate this heat which, as I remember and is confirmed by recent reports to be considerable. Just some thoughts. I do not pretend to know much about how Leica designed the operating system for this camera or the sub-processors involved but I suspect that Leica will discover a timing issue or I/O interface issue (such as reading the position of the on/off switch so as to generate a proper turn on sequence) as the problem. This may involve firmware, hardware, or a combination of the two. Also, with regard to static induced damage, consider that the entire camera is enclosed in a metallic shell. Faraday discovered long ago that such an environement was incredibly protective of objects inside. The static issue is more of a concern during the manufacture of the PCB (printed circuit board) than the final assembly. If these boards are damaged during manufacturing, then latent failures could indeed be an issue. Most manufacturing facilities however have extensive procedures in place to protect the PCB such as conductive flooring in the manufacturing area and requiring all personel to wear anti static heel straps on shoes which are tested when they enter the work area. Michael I think more than the static issue, this is where it starts to make sense for me. I could get mutally exclusive behaviours, either the menus would work or the shutter would work and the dngs would be write. A lot of it revolved around the on/off switch, changing this would end the period where it would work. so it seem to me the brain of the M8 is not processing inputs correctly. I can make the M8 do everything it needs to do somehow, fire, write dngs, advance, occasionally display an image, update firmware, etc, although the menus not so much, but I have seen them, but to get it all to work togethe in concert is not happening. so its all there, but scrambled, and it revolves around power on-power off, the battery, and the bottom cover. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 18, 2007 Share #77 Posted February 18, 2007 Also, with regard to static induced damage, consider that the entire camera is enclosed in a metallic shell. Faraday discovered long ago that such an environement was incredibly protective of objects inside. Michael, the situation with the M8 may be a bit different, because parts of the inside are connected to parts of the outside, and sometimes quite directly. I don't know what the weak point of the system is, but the USB port, for example, reaches directly inside and touches the circuit board. The shutter may too. I am not up on Faraday cages, but I doubt that they protect well under such circumstances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
finkaudio Posted February 18, 2007 Share #78 Posted February 18, 2007 Hi, I personally believe these are all firmware issues. I had a few hick-ups like freezing camera, but that was due to a dodgy SD card. Obviously there are some problems sometimes when writing back information in into the camera flash memory and if you try hard enough and corrupt it, the camera turns dead. I’m working in the consumer electronic industry and you ask me about such problems… Problem for LEICA is to find that out before shipping the camera. In my case it was a Sandisk Extreme III that gave me all the problems. Let’s say Leica did most of the testing using no Extreme III – just because it was not there. Now for example I use Extrem III in my camera and I switch it on, get by accident to C instead of S, but I was shooting already. I immediately go back to S while the camera is still shooting. Let's assume Leica tested this “misbehavior” and found no problems. But now, I have a card that is dodgy or is much faster than other cards Leica used before and we get a timing problem when the camera writes back some information. Bang! One line of code might help, but only AFTER you found out the problem. Want another example? End of last year, we released a DVD unit and when it hit the market, we found out that it did not play “Pirates of the Caribbean 2”. And yes, it was true, but the movie came out after we released the unit and with all other critical movies we know the unit worked. Our DVD transport vendor in China was trying to find the problem, but all copies they had, played without problems. But there was no official one in China in that time, only pirate copies… After we shipped one to Asia, it took 2 days or so to get the fix…. Shit happens Best regards Karl-Heinz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted February 18, 2007 Share #79 Posted February 18, 2007 Given the internals of the M8, if as many on this forum have reported, the shutter/exposure system works, but the menu don't, that very strongly implies that the Blackfin processor that controls the CCD, shutter, etc is up and working, but the Intel PXA270 that controls the back panel is down. Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 18, 2007 Share #80 Posted February 18, 2007 BTW i did send a link to Leica on this thread. Hopefully they will read this to get a sense of what is happening and Sandy you are mostly correct the shutter does work sometimes after you charge the battery and let the camera sit for awhile it will than fire the shutter but as soon as you hit a button for review bam it goes away again. But the shutter does not work all the time during this. Mine was completely dead than put in another battery than it would fire than fail again after I hit the play button and non of this was very consistant either. Mine was with 1.06 also but this seemed to creep into 1.09 too. So far with my fixed camera for this and the hardware update have i not seen any hiccups. i wonder what my service record says on the repair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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