robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #41 Â Posted February 17, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) With respect to reliability, it is just one of those things. For example, I have had two powerbooks and one G5 tower, both powerbooks have failed in some way, the tower has been solid. No one seems to like Lacie hard drives but I have never had a problem...Panasonic DVD player last month, DOA...I have friends whom I marvel at their ability to fry electronics-a friend has had numerous hard drives go down within days of purchase including Lacies and others. You can try another manufacturer and everyone has their flavour of best whatever, but the truth is there is a lot of variability in these kinds of devices. I have had good experiences with Canon products (if you exclude the imaging performance of their wide angle glass...) for reliability, good experiences with Hassy and mamiya. I have had bad experiences with Leaf software and Bronica hardware. I am sure others would contradict this. Â I think it would be nice if in some ways Leica was more like a consumer electronics company in terms of volume, in other words, its broke, return it and get another. None of this handholding from the mothership which takes too long. I don't really care if they are committed to finding a solution for my camera, just make lots of them and I'll try another. Maybe eventually demand will slow and there will be lots of stock to choose from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 17, 2007 Posted February 17, 2007 Hi robertwright, Take a look here another dead horse.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #42  Posted February 17, 2007 It still is worth trying the reset if he can keep the power on . Just leave it on until it drains completely to dead than recharge the battery fully than try again. The hard part is he can't get to the menu to disable auto shut off. You could try once you hget the battery on the camera don't touch the preview button or anything just shoot it until dead  it has been on now for a half hour, and actually I don't think it is going off, it is getting warm, but not like before, this is just what I would expect from the lcd being in a constant on state. So I will let it deplete. Hey its not going to hurt...  with respect to getting the camera home and shooting on the factory-charged bat, this should not matter. Obviously the power management is an issue in firmware, and special handling is not going to make things better. you should expect to do those cycles of charge-deplete over the first few days of using the camera, I don't think it is reasonable to have to cycle the battery three times completely before using the camera at all. It is just something they have to figure out.  ultimately I do expect that it will just work.  Down to one bar on the bat meter, this is about an hour-no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #43 Â Posted February 17, 2007 Just let it die and let's see what happens , maybe nothing but worth a try. Nothing to lose here. Maybe when you do insert the battery after this , try with a card that has a new firmware on it. May just wake it up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 17, 2007 Share #44 Â Posted February 17, 2007 I haven't done the battery run down with either of my batteries and so far no problem. It seems like a strange requirement unless the battery itself contains electronics tht need calibration. It also makes me wonder about the charger. Normally, it is not recommended to run down LiOn batteries and in fact they prefer that you just re-top them off periodically. Therefore this seems like an unusual request. Ni-Cads required the deep discharge because of battery memory effects to establish the proper zero point. Just a curiosity to me:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #45 Â Posted February 17, 2007 I think the camera electronics are displaying their latent desire to "go back to analog" and render the camera more like its older brethern, the M7 etc. Â I can shoot and the dng's are there on the card. I just can't do all the digital stuff like set the iso and review... Â It's uncannily like film... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #46 Â Posted February 17, 2007 at this point, the camera is warm, and considering how cold my apt is, it is definitely running continuously. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #47 Â Posted February 17, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I haven't done the battery run down with either of my batteries and so far no problem. It seems like a strange requirement unless the battery itself contains electronics tht need calibration. It also makes me wonder about the charger. Normally, it is not recommended to run down LiOn batteries and in fact they prefer that you just re-top them off periodically. Therefore this seems like an unusual request. Ni-Cads required the deep discharge because of battery memory effects to establish the proper zero point. Just a curiosity to me:) Â I know with apple laptops they do recommend a full discharge not for the li-ion battery condition, but to set the power management to zero to get a better idea of battery state. Something to do with the measurement basis in software or perhaps in hardware. But I think you are right, it is not to "condition" the battery so to speak like Ni-cads. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #48 Â Posted February 17, 2007 I know with apple laptops they do recommend a full discharge not for the li-ion battery condition, but to set the power management to zero to get a better idea of battery state. Something to do with the measurement basis in software or perhaps in hardware. But I think you are right, it is not to "condition" the battery so to speak like Ni-cads. Â Â It is to reset the camera and not so much the battery issue although even the DMR they recommend a 3 battery conditioning and there Lithum -Ion also Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #49 Â Posted February 17, 2007 well the bat level shows zero bars and it is still on. That took about an hour and a half to go from full to zero. It is still "warm". I can tell relative to the other lenses I have out, they are "cold", the lens attached to the camera is def. warmer than they are. Guess is is a good winter camera huh? Â any hunches on when 1.10 is due -we are getting deep into february. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #50  Posted February 17, 2007 I think this was probably was warm as that first experience, if I factor in it was in an insulated bag on my lap inside the cab home, and getting home, my hands were cold, taking it out of the bag it felt hot-but having it on now like this for two hours with air circulation, i can see that if it had been in my bag it would be hotter. So I don't think it was a short-I think it is just the heat disappated from the lcd being on constantly.  she's a real "hottie" don't you think? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/16463-another-dead-horse/?do=findComment&comment=174757'>More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #51 Â Posted February 17, 2007 Robert that is part of the bug in the firmware the battery level shown may not represent the actually battery level of the battery itself and looks like it has this issue with yours, i did this to all my batteries and both M8' s and it seems they match up now between the level shown and the actual level of the battery. they did say this is a bug that will be fixed in he next update which everyone is waiting for to come soon which givem PMA is in March the second week i would bet a dozens donuts it will be ready before the show opening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #52 Â Posted February 17, 2007 What I really want to know is what did they do to mine when they fixed it and what was the cause and that would answer a lot of this like in Seans poll this came up with several dead camera's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #53 Â Posted February 17, 2007 well the battery is dead now, so I am going to charge it and put it back later today along with firmware. Â I don't expect any miracles but I might sacrifice a chicken (lunch) in the meantime... Â I agree the charging/bat/status/on-off thing is tied together. Â I will post later today if there is any change. Thanks for the support. Â Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #54 Â Posted February 17, 2007 Robert Your Welcome and keep fingers crossed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted February 17, 2007 Share #55 Â Posted February 17, 2007 what do you actually expect from a had made camera, where no such end control is available as e.g. Nikon and Canon can do???? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #56 Â Posted February 17, 2007 well i sort of wonder about my friends who run pc's and wake up every morning, check for updates, download virus definitons and do disc defragmentations routines, clean registries, etc. Â there is no superior position in this, if we are to take the position that bigger is better, ie canon, nikon etc, then by that logic apple has no chance and microsoft should be the most reliable.... Â This has not been my experience. Integration is what counts. I agree, Canon and NIkon have a lot more experience integrating electronics and optics. So I expect a better integration from them. But Leaf and Phase are all feeling this too. It has to do with scale somewhat, you could say the Leica is more like medium format digital, it is a bit of a boutique thing, they are very small relative to the other players. Have I told you the story about how Leaf has not been able to manufacture a sliding back for their digital backs on large format that actually allows you to focus? the ground glass is misregistered by about 2mm relative to the chip. Pretty easy fix, horrible indication of either their manufacturing tolerances or their "hand-made-ness." Â Where I think Leica went wrong is by sticking stubbornly to their mantra of "there is no need to innovate, the M series is the sine qua non of cameras." In a way this is true, the M needs no improvement, it is a superlative camera as it is. But I think where Leica got caught is by not innovating anyway. Yes, the M does not need change, but you still need to push the envelope to find new things, patent things etc. This is where Microsoft and apple differ. Microsoft is stuck under the weight of their own size and cannot push innovation because it upsets too much of the installed base. Apple can abandon products willy nilly and features and have, much to the chagrin of users, but in the end, they are making a more innovative product overall. Â I think Leica needed to do this M8 a long time ago even if it was not "up to their standards" mainly because they needed the R and D experience. I think they were too afraid to fail. And if anything photography is about failure. Getting caught in making "perfect" pictures is a recipe for death. They will learn a lot from this, and if they are going to be a successful company in the future it is up to them to grow out of this and come back next year with a M9 (or M8mkii?). I think this would be an excellent path for them to adopt. If they wait three years or five years, I think it does not bode well. Product cycles are shorter across the board, and while we all may lament it, there is a benefit, for example, look at cpu/gpu development, the moores law thing, it applies here. Leica needs to move on fast and if they do that they will stay relevant, otherwise, they are not learning from this stumble on the M8. Â Plus, more models means more sales, more profit, more media profile etc. Being a boutique niche player means you have to respond faster, not slower. They really need to get out of this collector/resale value thing fast, it is killing them. You watch, Zeiss will have a digital soon, and at a different price point. There is a market there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest magyarman Posted February 17, 2007 Share #57  Posted February 17, 2007 You guys make me laugh ,you think for one second this does not happen to Nikon , Canon , Hassy and other digital camera's than your living in a hole, seriously this stuff happens all the time to camera's and even film camera's . Stuff breaks but electronic camera's are more prone to it becuase of the electronics and if your a idiot to not have backups than you deserve to fall on your face. I have a backup a rental shop close by and also a DMR system to jump back too any pro worth there salt has a Plan B and a Plan C in regards to there gear. These are tools and tools break  This truth, however when is mine tools break I gift to professionalist fixer. I dont want thing why is broke, I dont want find way how is need fix up, that is not mine responsable. I need just take another camera what I can make fotos for mine work. You also do this, this I understand you tell. What I do not understand why you spend it your mind to find way to fix up M8 instead you spend this time take more fotos what you got paid. For professionalist fotographer camera is plain tool for work. If is broke, need somebody else worry how supposed to fix up. Leica compagnie hears by this day many storys about broke M8, is they suppose come here and tell how is gonna fix up. Instead nobody who hear from them nothing. All is left plain guys like Guy and Sean try to help who got broke M8. This very nice they do this, they grate guys, however all what they can do just make it some guest. Leica got speciality equipments and science people suppose understand best how works M8. Why they do not say nothing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #58 Â Posted February 17, 2007 Going back to this issue and i am really going to stand behind this comment because first it is the single most common issue going and not being a engineer i can only go by experience and logic and i still think this all full circle issue comes back to the battery not the camera or the firmware but a battery that may not be putting out enough voltage or varying voltage to send the firmware into a tail spin. That is my theory and i want someone to prove me wrong on it. I'm serious and sending this thread to leica because there simple no reason to me all the variables that are happening cannot be the camera and cannot be the firmware induced it has to come from some irregular pattern from the voltage to get the firmware screwed up. i could be dead wrong but something needs to be blamed and i am picking the battery. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #59 Â Posted February 17, 2007 This truth, however when is mine tools break I gift to professionalist fixer. I dont want thing why is broke, I dont want find way how is need fix up, that is not mine responsable. I need just take another camera what I can make fotos for mine work. You also do this, this I understand you tell. What I do not understand why you spend it your mind to find way to fix up M8 instead you spend this time take more fotos what you got paid. For professionalist fotographer camera is plain tool for work. If is broke, need somebody else worry how supposed to fix up. Leica compagnie hears by this day many storys about broke M8, is they suppose come here and tell how is gonna fix up. Instead nobody who hear from them nothing. All is left plain guys like Guy and Sean try to help who got broke M8. This very nice they do this, they grate guys, however all what they can do just make it some guest. Leica got speciality equipments and science people suppose understand best how works M8. Why they do not say nothing? Â You make a good point and understand what you are saying and really Sean and i are here to help the users but we also love these camera's and want them to work so in turn we both are trying to help leica too, it is a small company with a certain amount of resources to dedicate to the issues but also none of them are out there using this every single hour of every day either like us Pro's , i have put thousands of images on these camera's in real world situations so they are getting a great workout. If I didnot like the camera to start with than I would not spend the time too, but I love the files so in the end it is worth it to us too. Plus I like a challenge and really the issues are somewhat overblown except this failure one which is bugging me a lot. The rest are workarounds that will easily be solved in the next firmware . Hardware issue are the ones that are scary and not sure were this one is coming from, so if i can help than I will do that. And all we can do is report these issues so there engineers and scientist can take whatever data we have a work on it and so far things have been improved even the hardware fix the problems started on this forum so that data that Pascal put out helped solve that issue in the end. Everything we report will eventually help the next guy and ourseleve's. Folks should be thrilled that this kind of help will make there purchase easier to decide what to do and how to work with the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 17, 2007 Share #60 Â Posted February 17, 2007 robertwright, Â I concur with what you are saying completely. The pace required today is very difficult. When I started in computers a 5year development cycle was not uncommon. Now you have to respond withing 12 months or less. Intel obsoletes their product on a 6 month cycle. Try keeping up with that as a developer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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