chrism Posted February 17, 2007 Share #21 Â Posted February 17, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think it's most important that Leica gets to hear about cameras that fail and are very warm to the touch afterwards. There's one "feature" of CMOS circuits that can cause this and that's ESD induced latchup. ...... Â You'll know more about this than I do, but the sensor in the M8 is a CCD, not CMOS. Maybe the circuits are similar. Â Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 17, 2007 Posted February 17, 2007 Hi chrism, Take a look here another dead horse.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
LJL Posted February 17, 2007 Share #22  Posted February 17, 2007 I think it's most important that Leica gets to hear about cameras that fail and are very warm to the touch afterwards. There's one "feature" of CMOS circuits that can cause this and that's ESD induced latchup. There's a 4 layer structure produced during CMOS fabrication that can act as a silicon controlled rectifier. The SCR is connected directly between the supply (battery) terminals. If there is enough current injected into the structure, say from an ESD strike, to make the SCR gain greater than one then the current is self maintaining and can be destructive. It's magnitude is only limited by the battery and bulk impedances. There are many safeguards build in during the design and fabrication process but if the injected current is large enough then latchup can still occur. I read a letter from Leica on the forum saying they do test to an ESD standard. I wonder if that includes an ESD strike while the camera is powered up.  I would never accept a camera that had been hot due to this cause. The best line of action is to get it exchanged and to let Leica know what has happened. You're not the first to have a camera that's failed hot.  Just to add... I used to be a senior CMOS chip designer with a large semiconductor corporation.  Bob.  Bob, This is interesting. I am not an engineer, so learning some of this stuff is both useful and gets me to wondering. However, the sensor in the M8 is a CCD, not a CMOS, so I am worndering if similar charging applies. CCDs due consume more power than CMOS, as I understand, so if there was some sort of circuit shorting going on, it seems more reasonable that the battery would be drained faster, and things could get quite warm also.  In either case, the camera is less than a week old. It should be returned to the dealer and exchanged for a new one, or get a refund and buy another one from someplace when one pops up. The camera in hand does need to be returned.  LJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #23 Â Posted February 17, 2007 Bob,This is interesting. I am not an engineer, so learning some of this stuff is both useful and gets me to wondering. However, the sensor in the M8 is a CCD, not a CMOS, so I am worndering if similar charging applies. CCDs due consume more power than CMOS, as I understand, so if there was some sort of circuit shorting going on, it seems more reasonable that the battery would be drained faster, and things could get quite warm also. Â In either case, the camera is less than a week old. It should be returned to the dealer and exchanged for a new one, or get a refund and buy another one from someplace when one pops up. The camera in hand does need to be returned. Â LJ Â Â The getting warm issue is what is bothering me and does sound like the circuits may have been fried. When mine came back from Germany there was no description of what they have done to fix mine. Now i don't remember mine going warm but i was on a shoot in a golf cart with the DMR and M8 and the M8 was around my neck and it was cold that morning so may have not noticed the warm part but again return it if you can. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #24 Â Posted February 17, 2007 I don't think there was any static issue, the studio was entirely wood flooring, I have rubber soled shoes, and my tinfoil hat keeps the NSA away... Â Managed to get the firmware updated, but it still does the same things. I can make it shoot if I leave the switch on and remove the bottom plate and insert, eject and insert the battery a few times, eventually I can put the cover back on and it will shoot, but the menus are inaccessable. But if I switch the camera off and on it goes back to being a pretty brick. Â I do notice that the battery never really got warm while I was charging it, do others battery get warm durning charging-I would expect they would. Anyhoo, battery indicator shows full charge and remaining frames accurately enough it seems. Â Not much to do but swap it monday morning... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted February 17, 2007 Share #25  Posted February 17, 2007 While the sensor is indeed CCD, both the CPUs in the M8 are CMOS technology  Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest magyarman Posted February 17, 2007 Share #26 Â Posted February 17, 2007 Sean and Guy, here I need understand something. I understand for who got retireded ora some like stomotolog who got plenty money and time can happy spend his mind to thing how fix up camera. I also fotograpfer for professional, this I never no hear before mine life, professional fotographer who got in his mind spend it thing so much time about camera. I need it camera what is work, this is only. If was myself I gonna tell to Leica, you fix up, than I buy. Except before, I need take another marque becaus to make money ora mine family does not eat. How you two can to put your life behind camera which is in any minute can be good just for keep door open? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #27 Â Posted February 17, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) guy, you would have noticed the warmth, it was hot really. it startled me. that has not reoccured. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #28  Posted February 17, 2007 I don't think there was any static issue, the studio was entirely wood flooring, I have rubber soled shoes, and my tinfoil hat keeps the NSA away... Managed to get the firmware updated, but it still does the same things. I can make it shoot if I leave the switch on and remove the bottom plate and insert, eject and insert the battery a few times, eventually I can put the cover back on and it will shoot, but the menus are inaccessable. But if I switch the camera off and on it goes back to being a pretty brick.  I do notice that the battery never really got warm while I was charging it, do others battery get warm durning charging-I would expect they would. Anyhoo, battery indicator shows full charge and remaining frames accurately enough it seems.  Not much to do but swap it monday morning...  Okay sort of the same things that happened to me also some things would work with removing and reinserting battery than hit the menu and died again and all kinds of weird stuf. I think i was the first this happened too that was reported hear and also similar to others later on. Return it and get another one if you can and if not let the board know. Thanks Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #29 Â Posted February 17, 2007 guy, you would have noticed the warmth, it was hot really. it startled me. that has not reoccured. Â Robert just curious if you have another battery , i wonder if that got fried Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 17, 2007 Share #30 Â Posted February 17, 2007 Since you were able to update the firmware and still have the problem, it sounds like a hardware issue to me. By the way, CMOS processors behave differently than CMOS sensors in some important ways. We use CMOS in military and spaceborn applications (where fixing is out of the question) for its self healing properties if hit by EMP (Electro Magnetic Pulse) from a nuclear blast or EMP weapon. Since he can shoot pictures the CCD appears to be ok so it is likely some other circuit related to the rear LCD that has suffered damage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJL Posted February 17, 2007 Share #31 Â Posted February 17, 2007 When I first got mine back in early November last year, I do recall one time placing the camera into the bag after shooting, seeing something else a few minutes later, reaching into the bag and finding that the camera was a bit warmer than I thought it should be. I noticed that the power switch was moved to multishot or timer (cannot recall which, but it was NOT off). At the time I thought I had caused it to stay powered. I turned it off, turned it back on and it worked, fine. That was only about 2-5 minutes of constant on, so it may not have gotten "critical". Â My experience at the time made me super worried about the power switch, which I still think has some real problems. I even asked to have that checked and made tighter when I sent the camer to Solms last month. (Still not back, so I do not know if it is "fixed".) It never happened again, so I kind of chalked it up to user error, but now I am not so sure. My gut is telling me there is something going on between the battery discharge/memory problem and the power switch problem also. No way to prove it, and no way to "test" it now either. Just my thinking on this. Â LJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #32 Â Posted February 17, 2007 Sean and Guy, here I need understand something. I understand for who got retireded ora some like stomotolog who got plenty money and time can happy spend his mind to thing how fix up camera. I also fotograpfer for professional, this I never no hear before mine life, professional fotographer who got in his mind spend it thing so much time about camera. I need it camera what is work, this is only. If was myself I gonna tell to Leica, you fix up, than I buy. Except before, I need take another marque becaus to make money ora mine family does not eat. How you two can to put your life behind camera which is in any minute can be good just for keep door open? Â Â You guys make me laugh ,you think for one second this does not happen to Nikon , Canon , Hassy and other digital camera's than your living in a hole, seriously this stuff happens all the time to camera's and even film camera's . Stuff breaks but electronic camera's are more prone to it becuase of the electronics and if your a idiot to not have backups than you deserve to fall on your face. I have a backup a rental shop close by and also a DMR system to jump back too any pro worth there salt has a Plan B and a Plan C in regards to there gear. These are tools and tools break Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #33  Posted February 17, 2007 Robert just curious if you have another battery , i wonder if that got fried  I only have the one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #34  Posted February 17, 2007 When I first got mine back in early November last year, I do recall one time placing the camera into the bag after shooting, seeing something else a few minutes later, reaching into the bag and finding that the camera was a bit warmer than I thought it should be. I noticed that the power switch was moved to multishot or timer (cannot recall which, but it was NOT off). At the time I thought I had caused it to stay powered. I turned it off, turned it back on and it worked, fine. That was only about 2-5 minutes of constant on, so it may not have gotten "critical". My experience at the time made me super worried about the power switch, which I still think has some real problems. I even asked to have that checked and made tighter when I sent the camer to Solms last month. (Still not back, so I do not know if it is "fixed".) It never happened again, so I kind of chalked it up to user error, but now I am not so sure. My gut is telling me there is something going on between the battery discharge/memory problem and the power switch problem also. No way to prove it, and no way to "test" it now either. Just my thinking on this.  LJ  I said this about 2 months ago and i still wonder about this and that is the batteries themselves and are they putting out the correct voltage and such. All of these issues have something related to the power of the camera and weird stuff going on Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 17, 2007 Share #35  Posted February 17, 2007 I don't think there was any static issue, the studio was entirely wood flooring, I have rubber soled shoes, and my tinfoil hat keeps the NSA away... Managed to get the firmware updated, but it still does the same things. I can make it shoot if I leave the switch on and remove the bottom plate and insert, eject and insert the battery a few times, eventually I can put the cover back on and it will shoot, but the menus are inaccessable. But if I switch the camera off and on it goes back to being a pretty brick.  I do notice that the battery never really got warm while I was charging it, do others battery get warm durning charging-I would expect they would. Anyhoo, battery indicator shows full charge and remaining frames accurately enough it seems.  Not much to do but swap it monday morning...  Are you sure about the static? When I lived in NYC, my apartment used to get quite dry in the winter.  It may be that static electricity is just one of several things that can trigger damage to the camera's boot record (if that's what is happening). The warmth, however, would make one wonder about a short. I don't recall either of the M8s I was using being warm when they locked up.  Someone should do a survey to see how common this kind of failure is among forum members who own M8s. <G>  Cheers,  Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #36 Â Posted February 17, 2007 in as much as the hardware is being queried by software, I think it is a software thing, it is not responding to inputs reliably. Individually the on-off switch will function, but not in concert with the bottom plate sensor or even with respect to itself, ie, going from single to continuous. Â anyway, did the firmware update again, still the same pretty brick. Charge level has dropped to 2/3rds in just the time we have emailed. Maybe I will leave it on and see if it depletes totally and then recharge the batt. Â thanks all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share #37  Posted February 17, 2007 Are you sure about the static? When I lived in NYC, my apartment used to get quite dry in the winter.  It may be that static electricity is just one of several things that can trigger damage to the camera's boot record (if that's what is happening). The warmth, however, would make one wonder about a short. I don't recall either of the M8s I was using being warm when they locked up.  Someone should do a survey to see how common this kind of failure is among forum members who own M8s. <G>  Cheers,  Sean  maybe I'll try taking it in the shower with me to humidify it.,..  another thing I notice is that the screen never goes completely dark, it is always a very faint grey. which accounts for some of the warmth I think, it is always "on" and that is why the bat is depleting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted February 17, 2007 Share #38  Posted February 17, 2007 there was no event that I can remember prior, it was working, it turned it off, put it in the bag, and then saw something else to shoot and took it out, and it was unresponsive. this was all indoors at a studio in manhattan. I got the camera a fotocare thursday night. I did shoot a little with the partially charged from the factory battery before charging the battery to full later that night. It worked fine, and all through the next day. SD cards are 2GB transcend 150x speed. Fotocare recommended them (perhaps because they were expensive? )  I thought shooting with a partially charged battery was a no-no...I'm wondering if the low voltage problem causes a cascade of events that eventually blacks out the camera. I note that he said he charged the battery that night and the next day it worked okay for a while...  JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #39  Posted February 17, 2007 maybe I'll try taking it in the shower with me to humidify it.,.. another thing I notice is that the screen never goes completely dark, it is always a very faint grey. which accounts for some of the warmth I think, it is always "on" and that is why the bat is depleting.   Leica knows about that one and should be in the next firmware update Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 17, 2007 Share #40 Â Posted February 17, 2007 It still is worth trying the reset if he can keep the power on . Just leave it on until it drains completely to dead than recharge the battery fully than try again. The hard part is he can't get to the menu to disable auto shut off. You could try once you hget the battery on the camera don't touch the preview button or anything just shoot it until dead Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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