are you afraid of your m9/m9-p getting wet? dont be!

[erl]

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You know, at the end of the day, level of risk is with us 24/7/365. Take reasonable care, insure if that is your thing, then carry the residual risk as the cost of your pleasure/assignment or whatever. The best insurance we take each day is getting out of bed in the morning. Why? Because the majority of people who die, do it in a bed.

[dasjak]

Re the condensation thing moving in and out of huts and the exterior envivonment. Leave the camera gear outside (in the bag). That avoids the acclimatisation thing. Condensation will occur inside the camera and potentially cause rust over time that you will never see. Weather sealing is no protection against that eventuallity.

 

normally i would let it out in the cold but since i was on assignment i had to take pictures, no matter what...and i wasnt so much afraid that my camera could get lost, i was more afraid that i might not get the job done...the camera is insured, so no worries

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[zlatkob]

This whole wethersealing debate is a bit outside reality

 

By this logic, insurance for water damage is a bit outside reality too. I wonder why the Leica S2 is weather sealed.

[Jamie Roberts]

Just another data point. When I shoot weddings, they're often outside. They take place regardless of weather. They are often extremely wet.

 

I've had my M8 and M9 thoroughly drenched in thunderstorms, and I keep shooting them. They get sprayed on (freshwater) boats and often go from very hot and humid conditions to air conditioning.

 

In the rain, when I take shelter (umbrella, car) then I wipe them off, and I keep shooting. I'm mostly worried about an electronic failure, but it's never happened.

 

I've only had one piece of gear damaged by rain in yearts of shooting, and that was a Sigma 50 1,4 lens I had in my bag for the D3. The rain actually got into the lens (in the bag) and then condensed in the subsequent heat; it was totally useless for the whole day and I can't have useless stuff bog me down. So I no longer use it (though it dried out just fine, it's now gone).

[Jamie Roberts]

By this logic, insurance for water damage is a bit outside reality too. I wonder why the Leica S2 is weather sealed.

 

Because the damn fittings and tolerances on the S2 are so well made

 

Seriously, it's a lot larger and so there's a lot more space for water to enter--you need to see the size of the mount on that thing

[jaapv]

By this logic, insurance for water damage is a bit outside reality too. I wonder why the Leica S2 is weather sealed.

Nothing to do with logic - it is just one of the insured risks.

 

The S2 is weathersealed because it is a newly designed camera, so it could be incorporated in the design .

Actually it is watertight and can stand prolonged immersion up to 5 m. Still it is not sold as a snorkelling camera . It must be a near-impossiblity to provide the existing design of the M8/9 -and the M lenses! - with weathersealing that can withstand legal action by users.

 

Still, even the best weathersealing will not prevent the even worse damage that condensation will do. That is why an underwaterhousing must be used with silicagel inserts.

The only digital M that we know of that died of moisture did so by condensation.

[bocaburger]

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They do nothing. That is only with car insurance, where one may lose one's discount. Insurance of goods like these has no discount that can be lost.

 

I think there's a danger in generalizing, since this is an international forum. Here in the USA it's not that uncommon for insurance companies to refuse to renew property insurance policies (homeowners', "inland marine" or "named item") after paying out a big claim. I've had it happen, and I know of innumerable others who've had it happen to them.

[jaapv]

Things like insurances can certainly not be compared across borders.

[zlatkob]

The S2 is weathersealed because it is a newly designed camera, so it could be incorporated in the design .

Actually it is watertight and can stand prolonged immersion up to 5 m. Still it is not sold as a snorkelling camera . It must be a near-impossiblity to provide the existing design of the M8/9 -and the M lenses! - with weathersealing that can withstand legal action by users.

 

The M9 and the S2 are both newly designed models. Both date to 2009. The M9 did not have to follow a non-weather-sealed design. And weather-sealing does not have to extend to all lenses. Canon and Nikon produce a lot of non-weather-sealed lenses for use on weather-sealed camera bodies. Surely Leica could produce one weather-sealed M lens if they wished to do so (there is no need to make them all weather-sealed). I know the argument ... small lenses can't be weather sealed ... but Leica makes some big M lenses too.

 

The pattern of this discussion is predictable. Just about every proposed improved to the M is ridiculed as either unneeded or impossible ("outside reality"). But if and when Leica introduces that very same improvement, it is then praised as a self-evident advantage, a key selling point, and a reason for many to upgrade.

 

The only digital M that we know of that died of moisture did so by condensation.

 

Post #6 above is already forgotten?

[Jamie Roberts]

The M9 and the S2 are both newly designed models. Both date to 2009. The M9 did not have to follow a non-weather-sealed design. And weather-sealing does not have to extend to all lenses. Canon and Nikon produce a lot of non-weather-sealed lenses for use on weather-sealed camera bodies. Surely Leica could produce one weather-sealed M lens if they wished to do so (there is no need to make them all weather-sealed). I know the argument ... small lenses can't be weather sealed ... but Leica makes some big M lenses too.

 

Zlatko, this really isn't fair. The M mount isn't new at all, neither is the RF mechanism or a host of other things on the M9.

 

I don't know for sure but I'm not sure where you'd put a seal on the M mount. It's very small, and there are mechanisms right there to interact with the lens so you can focus

 

I really don't think Leica wanted to redsign the rangefinder mechanism and probably that's one good reason it isn't weather sealed. I'd love to hear someone from Leica talk about this one day.

 

But to call the M9 a new design like the S2 is factually just wrong. The S2 is new from the ground up; it's not an R body or design either.

And when the bayonet clicks in place on that camera it's unlike anything else I've ever "felt" in terms of solidity of interlock.

 

The pattern of this discussion is predictable. Just about every proposed improved to the M is ridiculed as either unneeded or impossible ("outside reality"). But if and when Leica introduces that very same improvement, it is then praised as a self-evident advantage, a key selling point, and a reason for many to upgrade.

{snipped}

 

Also really not fair in this context.

 

No-one is saying it wouldn't be nice to have a weather-sealed M, but it's totally not a deal breaker.

 

And if Leica told me it couldn't be done without adding significant cost to the body (and retrofitting my lenses too!) then I don't think I'd do it anyway! When there's an actual new "M mount" design--if there ever is--that's when I would expect Leica to take a page from S2 development.

 

In the meantime, it's unfortunate that people have issues with their Ms, and I don't know what to say about that. It's an electronic device; you need to be careful with water. Some of us are perhaps, less careful than the manufacturer suggests we should be... but so far, in my case anyway, to no ill effects.

[ho_co]

I concur 100% with Jamie, who posted as I was preparing this post.

 

 

How many times do we have to debate weather sealing?

 

• Just because of electronics, the M9 is a lot larger than the M6.
  
• It wouldn't be possible to add weather sealing to the current design.
  
• Once you start messing with ergonomics, it isn't an M any more.
  

Weather sealing would be a plus if only for advertising purposes, but so far there are very few cases of cameras failing because of weather.

Edited August 29, 2011 by ho_co

[sblitz]

this is all very helpful ..... sea water and fresh water impact electrical components quite differently as we all learned in nyc the past several days....if the sea water was going to breech the sea walls around lower manhattan con ed was going to pre-emptively shut electricity -- whereas flooding from rain water creates no such need.

 

a friend dropped her cell phone into water and then buried in a bowl of uncooked rice for several days and all was well.....so if you do travel into wet conditions bring rice in a well sealed bag just in case ...

[vanhulsenbeek]

What is missing in this thread is that in any instance of moisture collecting in the camera it is always better to remove the battery. Even when off, there is always some rest current: meaning death when combined with moisture and/ or salt!

[zlatkob]

It's an electronic device; you need to be careful with water.

 

Jamie, you raise good points as always. And most certainly it is an electronic device -- one without any weather sealing -- so one needs to be careful with water.

 

I was reacting to the view that "Digital ms get soaked, dunked in rivers and everything else. They just soldier on. This whole wethersealing debate is a bit outside reality." That seems like a rather unrealistic view to me, and it is disproven by eudemian's post.

 

My point is weather sealing is a good thing -- a very good thing. That's why it's on the S2, not just because that is a big camera. If and when weather sealing becomes a priority on a redesigned M, or on any part of a redesigned M, its goodness will become self-evident there too. I realize that may be never, and it's certainly not a deal breaker.

[jaapv]

A symphony of misinterpreting.

 

a. I am all for weathersealing and have said so repeatedly, but consider the importance quite minor, given that less than one in 10.000 cameras appears to be affected. It could only be done at huge cost on the current body design. It would even make a whole new lens system necessary, even if only the most current ones.Don't you consider that outside reality? Better concentrate on real improvements like the electronics and leave the sealing bit to the day that an entirely new design of the M system sees the light. And yes, it would be a good thing if realistic. It would make me upgrade.

 

b. The basic M9 body design is 75 years old this year, as it is based on the Leica IV from 1936, as implemented in the M3 in 1954.

 

c. Judging by Eudemian's post his camera suffered water damage but he does not say it was destroyed. As opposed to the condensation victim that died. If he (and not the twisting of his post) tells us so, we can mark up the first digi M that died of outside moisture.

 

d. The problem with weathersealing M lenses is not the size, but the presence of an aperture ring. Weathersealing lenses mainly works with lenses that have a camera-driven aperture system.

 

 

So please stick to the facts, not to your preconceptions.

Edited August 29, 2011 by jaapv

[UliWer]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but my M8 was sent back to Leica after I was caught out in a sudden shower. It shut down and was categorised as water damaged. I think the M9 is little different in design to the M8 as regards water ingress so your enthusiam may be a little premature, or at the very least blessed with fortunate circumstance.

 

I had the M8 at Solms for a viewfinder out of line after it dropped. They informed me it had "water damage" which shocked me as it had never had any contact with water besides some raindrops and it functioned faultlessly

 

According to what they wrote on the bill, they didn't repair anything besides the viewfinder and cleaned the sensor - both without charge when the cam was out of warranty. So I think that "water damage" is just a filler if they don't find anything else.

[larryk34]

After listing for years to experts on forums like this one, I never go out with any camera without several zip lock bags. One large enough to enclose and seal my M9 while carrying it inside my normal leather camera bag (an old one designed for video cameras). The best advice I had was to snatch plastic shower caps out of any hotel that offers them to me. Keep at least one in the same camera bag. It completely covers the M9 with lens attached. The elastic band, when placed in the right location underneath the camera, completely keeps the rain off the camera. When you get to a covered location, you can uncover it and shoot photos. Or, if still a light rain, you can simply uncover the end of the lens (keeping most of it covered), and then start shooting again. When you're back in, check the shower cap for hole and keep or throw it away and stash the next one in your bag. This leaves humidity and airconditioning to worry about. Again, leave it in the zip locked bag until the inside temp and humidity are equalized for the camera. I had to get in and out of landing craft in the Galapados Islands, worring that I'd drop the whole camrera bag. But with the camera sealed inside a zip locked bag, I figured I could still recover it from the water before much leakage occurred. Anyone else do this?

[zlatkob]

A symphony of misinterpreting.

....

So please stick to the facts, not to your preconceptions.

 

A symphony of defenses for the status quo.

- it would involve a huge cost. (How do we know? Weather sealing has come to some rather inexpensive cameras.)

- it would require redesigning every lens. (Not every lens needs to be weather sealed.)

- the basic M9 body design is 75 years old. (It certainly isn't; that 'old design' idea can be used to excuse improving anything on the M camera ever; it would certainly close the door to everything digital.)

- "water damage" that requires repair in Solms is not the same as camera "death" or "destruction". (A big distinction, I guess ... or maybe not so big if your camera is not working).

- aperture ring excuses any effort at weather sealing anything. (An aperture ring can't be weather sealed, but mechanical focus rings and zoom rings on countless AF lenses can?)

[businessasusual]

I must be one of very few Gals who runs for cover in rain to protect M9, forget about my hair!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

Ah yes - I see. Saying that it unrealistic to tinker with the present system as it is not really suitable for weathersealing and that it needs a complete redesign is a plea for the status quo...