DMR and R line

[R10dreamer]

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Gary, that is not a fact. That is just some words in your post. If you have some real facts, please post them

 

Do you use the R8/R9? If you do then tell me why or how you can afford, in this market, to wait two years for the R10. If you don't what is your reason for assuming that people can?

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[carstenw]

Gary, questions are not an answer. Saying that people can't wait is simply your judgment, not a fact.

[rosuna]

Actual R users can wait 2 years, but it would be easier if they know what to expect from Leica, and when (approximately).

My point is that the development of the R10 needs resources, but Leica has no additional costs maintaining the R line active for 2 years. The demand will be weak, but they can freeze the production of R cameras and lenses during that period.

The development of the R10 requires a body and a digital heart. The R9 body is superb, and the M8 digital heart is ready. It shouldn't be too difficult or costly from this moment on. I am optimist.

[R10dreamer]

Carsten, did you ask me a question? I see no questions in your post. I did however ask you two questions. Can you answer those?

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}Do you use the R8/R9? If you do then tell me why or how you can afford, in this market, to wait two years for the R10. If you don't what is your reason for assuming that people can?

 

1) Yes... R9+DMR+glass. Lots of it.

 

2) I can wait for 2 years for Leica to get it right because of the very simple business reason that the prints I get from my Summilux 80R (or insert other favourite R lens) will still be even more stunning in 2 years than they are now.

 

The DMR, with 16bpp colour, is right now ahead of the N/C cameras in terms of colour rendition. Canon and Nikon are only starting to increase their bit depth (and that's just rumours at this point).

 

So with every churn of printer increased quality, I can feed it a DMR file (or an M8 file) that will look better and better as I no longer have to clamp the DMR to what can be currently printed.

 

In other words, the image quality bottleneck with the DMR is not the DMR file. It's the people who process them and the printers that print them.

 

But I'd still like one sooner than 2 years from now, because I really want Marc's cool-looking, lighter-carrying, body (and because I want better high ISO performance from the DMR, not from a Canon).

[R10dreamer]

Are you SURE that the Leica is true 16 bit?

[like_no_other]

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1) Yes... R9+DMR+glass. Lots of it.

 

2) I can wait for 2 years for Leica to get it right because of the very simple business reason that the prints I get from my Summilux 80R (or insert other favourite R lens) will still be even more stunning in 2 years than they are now.

 

The DMR, with 16bpp colour, is right now ahead of the N/C cameras in terms of colour rendition. Canon and Nikon are only starting to increase their bit depth (and that's just rumours at this point).

 

So with every churn of printer increased quality, I can feed it a DMR file (or an M8 file) that will look better and better as I no longer have to clamp the DMR to what can be currently printed.

 

In other words, the image quality bottleneck with the DMR is not the DMR file. It's the people who process them and the printers that print them.

 

But I'd still like one sooner than 2 years from now, because I really want Marc's cool-looking, lighter-carrying, body (and because I want better high ISO performance from the DMR, not from a Canon).

 

"The DMR, with 16bpp colour, is right now ahead of the N/C cameras in terms of colour rendition. Canon and Nikon are only starting to increase their bit depth (and that's just rumours at this point).

 

So with every churn of printer increased quality, I can feed it a DMR file (or an M8 file) that will look better and better as I no longer have to clamp the DMR to what can be currently printed.

 

In other words, the image quality bottleneck with the DMR is not the DMR file. It's the people who process them and the printers that print them."

 

Two questions must be allowed at this point.

1. How many colours can an average human beeing perceive theoretically?

2. How many colours can be differenciated in typical changing natural environments where we usually watch pictures, prints, magazines etc.?

 

I think some things are overrated.

[bono0272]

I am happy to use the DMR for another 2 years from now, and that will be even better if Leica can issue the upgrade firmware ASAP.

 

The DMR is not cheap and it's performance is still very outstanding and from the customers' economic point of view the DMR should last for a sustainable period before the next R digital comes out. IMO I don't want Leica to launch new digital cameras at the frequency as C and N (and of course that's not Leica's ability). Spending EURO 4000+ to buy a digital back for just using two years and then going buying the next new R digital is not a wise decision for a normal people with normal income.

 

So I am happy if the new R can only be shipped sometime in 2008 (may be too optimistic, that may even delay to 2009) but that will be a good news if Leica can tell us their plans or progress on the new products in the coming Photokina 2007.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Fact? Not quite. Narrow opinion. More likely.

 

Who cares about a bunch of "sweaty palmed" opinions?

 

Besides, just because this is a digital forum doesn't mean film disappeared. 2 years. 3 years. Whatever the wait for the R-10, Leica users are a patient lot if the M8 was any clue.

 

I have a M8, but I shoot my MP3 just as much.

 

R9 makes a nice film camera. Shot with a R8 & R6.2 for years. I could do that while I wait.

 

But I don't have to if I don't want to. The DMR is working just fine.

[ho_co]

Well Photokina is the traditional launching time for new Leica cameras, so we could expect something regarding a new R line at Photokina 2008, with a "teaser" hinting at what that could be at Photokina 2007?

David--

Actually, photokina comes along only in even-numbered years.

 

Maybe hints at PMA 2007 and 2008?

 

--HC

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}Two questions must be allowed at this point.

1. How many colours can an average human beeing perceive theoretically?

2. How many colours can be differenciated in typical changing natural environments where we usually watch pictures, prints, magazines etc.?

 

I think some things are overrated.

 

Hmmm. Assuming you have no vision defects, you can see a lot more than your printers typically print, than your monitor shows (it's an 8bpp device!!) and than your camera delivers (due mainly to the print).

 

Many things are over-rated, but not the limitations of printing!! Color is very, very hard; some colors you regularly sense are downright impossible (think deep blues, for example).

 

Everyone who has ever printed knows this. And the difference between 12bpp colour and 16bpp colour is, oh, only a billion or so visible colors

 

Who cares, though, if you can't print them? Well, the point is to have the right colours sent to the printer; that's always the case, actually.

 

And when Canon or Epson or Durst invent new ways to print with wider gamuts, well, then you'll have a better chance getting the right colours from a 16bpp original.

[Jamie Roberts]

Are you SURE that the Leica is true 16 bit?

 

Yes, actually; the DMR delivers, like most MF backs, a true 16bpp image. One of the benefits of having the guys who do Hasselblad backs making your Leica back This is not "consumer-level" gear, exactly.

 

When you're working a file for print, the extra depth shows up in the lack of artifacts in certain saturates, natural gradients (like blue skies) and in the way saturated colours blow out to "white" without banding in the DMR (no rainbow hues )

 

I believe the M8, right now, delivers a 14bpp image, which is still many times more colours than the 12bpp C/N cameras currently deliver.

[leicapages]

I have been following this thread on the DMR's demise with interest. I never thought the DMR was really that practical a solution as it was being proposed though there were moments where, admittedly, I have played with the thought of getting one.

 

I never did, however, and I am still happily shooting film. I even added a film-based Hasselblad Xpan II to my "arsenal" for those terrific panoramic shots :-)

 

That said, it remains a sad story that the addition of digital solutions to the R line is such a steep road for Leica. I hope this will be corrected very soon, and not in two years time as this, together with lack of confidence in the market after the demise of the DMR, would once again negatively affect confidence in the survival chances of the excellent R line :-(

 

Pascal

[carstenw]

Carsten, did you ask me a question? I see no questions in your post. I did however ask you two questions. Can you answer those?

 

Of course, but I am not going to. One person's answer is really not interesting here, neither mine nor yours. A survey might be interesting. Without doing a survey, it is not meaningful for anyone to post about what 'people' want.

 

My point here is that it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion when opinions are posted as 'fact'. I don't recall having noticed this before, but in this thread at least, you are quite aggressive, and it is unpleasant.

[mjh]

Two questions must be allowed at this point.

1. How many colours can an average human beeing perceive theoretically?

2. How many colours can be differenciated in typical changing natural environments where we usually watch pictures, prints, magazines etc.?

 

I think some things are overrated.

The answers to these question have no bearing on the issue. You are talking about the colour depth of an RGB TIFF or JPEG file when Jamie is is concerned about the bit depth of the raw data – two completely different issues. You may be content with an 8-bit TIFF eventually, but you would still want as many bits per pixel in the raw data, if only for preserving tonality in the shadows. The number of raw bits per pixel and the dynamic range of the image are strictly related: drop one bit and you lose one f-stop of dynamic range.

 

Having said that, one could argue that the DMR’s 16 bit data are contaminated with noise to some extent, so not all 16 bits are really significant. That is why Leica chose to drop the two least significant bits from the originally 16 bits in the M8. But the remaining 14 bits still equate to two additional f-stops compared to 12 bit raw formats.

[timbedsted1234]

Fact? Not quite. Narrow opinion. More likely.

 

Who cares about a bunch of "sweaty palmed" opinions?

 

Besides, just because this is a digital forum doesn't mean film disappeared. 2 years. 3 years. Whatever the wait for the R-10, Leica users are a patient lot if the M8 was any clue.

 

I have a M8, but I shoot my MP3 just as much.

 

R9 makes a nice film camera. Shot with a R8 & R6.2 for years. I could do that while I wait.

 

But I don't have to if I don't want to. The DMR is working just fine.

 

I think the main concern is two fold:

1. The many potential DMR buyers, who will no longer be able to upgrade from R8/R9 to the DMR

2. A general idea of where LEica sees the R line - product roadmap if you will

 

Of the two the first is the major one, because without the DMR the only digital upgrade path for a R user is to switch into the C-range

 

 

Best regards,

Tim

[Jamie Roberts]

Michael--thank you for so elegantly explaining what I was trying to say

[Riley]

to provide the sort of things people here appear to be seeking

re FF and such

there is no other way but a more dedicated digital SLR design

in other words a dSLR

hence the need for the hybrid is relieved

 

understandably such a design is significant in terms of the market competition

being that there are few dSLRs that are FF

and secrecy is to be expected

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[rsolomon]

maybe leica would like R users to migrate to the "D" system ? This way they maintain one DSLR ? my understanding is a leica-made adapter for R lenses to fit to the Digilux 3

 

if this is the plan i am not convinced it will work

[robsteve]

to provide the sort of things people here appear to be seeking

re FF and such

there is no other way but a more dedicated digital SLR design

in other words a dSLR

hence the need for the hybrid is relieved

 

understandably such a design is significant in terms of the market competition

being that there are few dSLRs that are FF

and secrecy is to be expected

 

Rob:

 

As I mentioned a couple times on the R10 threads, nothing is stopping Leica from just redesigning the film rails on the R9 so that a full frame sensor will fit and then doing a DMR-2 back.

 

They could also do like they did with the M8 and just integrate the body using some of the existing R9 tooling and parts.