Purple fringe problems on Leica M9

[thighslapper]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Nor do I.......

[menos I M6]

Good observation, you are right.

 

But, I still don't care...

 

 

 

EDIT: If, you zoom in to 400% and look at the window next to the obvious PF around the light on the 43rd floor in the Leica shot, you can clearly see a naked woman standing at the window.:eek:

 

Rick, just compared this with zooming in on the Noct-Nikkor shot.

It's a man Rick … it's a man

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Rick]

Rick, just compared this with zooming in on the Noct-Nikkor shot.

It's a man Rick … it's a man

 

OMG you are right!!! I'm dumping all my crappy Leica optics and my M9. I can't believe I was lusting after a man on floor 43. This is all Leica's fault. I've read thread after thread from the Leica fanboys (damn you) about how much better Leica is and in reality this crappy Leica optic can't even resolve, how should I say, gender. No amount of MTF'ing can dispute the simple GID test (gender identification test).

 

Repeat after me. I am a man and real men use Nikon

[valtadoros]

Chromatic aberration compounded by the digital process, correct it in postprocessing, your raw converter has a slider for it.

 

Thanks but what raw converter are you referring to?

[photoart]

CaptureOne Pro 5 or 6 is IMHO the best choice for such problems.

[jaapv]

I agree that Capture One is the best choice as it is written for AA filter-less CCDs, but most raw converters have defringing tools which are more or less effective.

[Jamie Roberts]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

{snipped}

Like I said I used to own the 50 1.0 EF which I used on the 5D2 . While some might say Ya but the the Canon 50 1.2 have purple fringing... Differnt glass. Not the same thing.

 

50 1.0 EF on Canon 5D2

 

Nikkor 28 1.4 AF-D on Nikon D3 with plenty of chrome.

{snipped}

 

"I know that there is no purple fringing with the Nikkor glass I mentioned 28 1.4 AF-D , 58 1.2 Noct and the Nikkor 300 2.0 IF-ED AIS on the D3. Further more I stand by the statement that there wasnt any on the Canon 5D2 with the 50 1.0 EF."

 

Gregory, you might "know" that experientially, but you'd be factually incorrect--at least about the glass itself, and probably about the camera combinations as well. Let's take your examples one by one... In car pics you posted, you're right: there's plenty of chrome, but no high-intensity speculars to speak of: it's night-time. You're not overwhelming the sensor there at all!

 

So... a quick Google search (it's not hard to find examples, but so many people's raw conversion these days take care of this, and there are so few 28 1.4s out there, I had to dig a bit...)

 

Canon 50 1.0 EF pn a 1ds3 (so the 5d2 would be extremely similar, uncorrected by a raw converter:

http://www.juzaphoto.com/shared_files/articles/canon_50_f1/canon_50_center_1-0.jpg

 

Note the extreme purple fringing on a typically normal f1.0 shot and a 1ds3. My Noctilux /m9 doesn't do that under those simple conditions.

Full review: Juza Nature Photography Note too, that even the redoubtable 85 1.2 shows the same thing, as I mentioned.

 

Nikkor 28 1.4 (this time on a Fuji S2, which was known for having great DR for the time, but the D3 is no doubt better):

Too much Chromatic Aberration? Help! - Nikon F-Mount Forums

 

That's really truly ugly, but not unexpected when you're overwhelming the sensor and you're wide open.

 

And finally, the Noct-Nikkor 58 1.2, on a D3 no less.

http://www.momentcorp.com/temporary%20files%20for%20website/noct-nikkor/_DSC3818.jpg

Full review:

Nikon Noct-Nikkor 58mm f/1.2 AI-S Review

 

The reviewer, Fredrick Rasmussen, has this to say about the Noct-Nikkor 58 1.2 on the D3:

 

The amount of CA was really disappointing, which is visible until f/2.8 and that's with the Nikon D3. The Nikkor 50mm f/1.2 actually perform better then the Noct-Nikkor does when it comes to CA.

 

So look, if you have a happy combo with the D3, that's great. But understand, please, that you're mistaken about the condition, and in fact, the lenses... Go shoot either lens in broad daylight at f1.4. Backlight someone with, I dunno, a sharp edge like a hat. Make sure there's true clipping in the background; expose for the person's face.

 

I'd be very surprised if the D3 doesn't show fringing.

 

However, it's worth point out that the D3 family files are so relatively soft out of the camera due to AA (it was kinda shocking coming from Canon that Nikon had a stronger AA filter) especially compared with an M9, it wouldn't surprise me if you had to take more extreme measures to see it... More importantly, the D3 family has tremendous DR. It's a lot *harder* to completely blow the highlights than it is on the M9 and so CA might be more controlled in shot to shot comparisons. But it's not gone. And of course, 99% of Nikon glass is not so good when it comes to flare rejection and other stuff...

 

And it mainly doesn't matter--because C1 will take care of this anyway But it is an all-round digital phenomenon.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Jamie Roberts

[Nikkor AIS]

Jamie your link on the 58 1.2 Nocturnal is dead for me. As far as the 50 1.2 AIS being better than the 58 1.2 Noctural when it comes to purple fringing? Well your read it on the internet it must be true:)

 

And your examples with the 28 1.4 AF-D where taken with a Fuji ? not the D3. Like I said, not the same thing.

 

 

Look, I am not saying that Leica M9 isnt a fantastic camera. however under certain conditions it displays some nasty purple fringing. So might like the purple fringe, me not so much.

 

I posted some example images with a Nikon D3 file to compare. Which has none. And some have chimed in it's because ..._____? The reason really dont matter. All I know is that it is there. I know it's hard to accept but there it is .. deal with it. Ignorince is bliss, Thinking is pain.

 

 

 

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Great-White-North/AAC5378/1175197978_sikFQ-L.jpg

 

Nikkor 28 1.4 AF-D on Nikon D3

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Great-White-North/i-tZ2xKwr/0/L/BBB09752-L.jpg

 

Nikkor 58 1.2 Nocturnal

 

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-300-20-IF-ED-AIS/DSC9989/844561073_xbyEd-L.jpg

 

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-300-20-IF-ED-AIS/DSC1395/1143132756_pbNXh-L.jpg

 

Nikkor 300 2.0 IF-ED AIS

 

 

Gregory

[Jamie Roberts]

Jamie your link on the 58 1.2 Nocturnal is dead for me. As far as the 50 1.2 AIS being better than the 58 1.2 Noctural when it comes to purple fringing? Well your read it on the internet it must be true:)

 

And your examples with the 28 1.4 AF-D where taken with a Fuji ? not the D3. Like I said, not the same thing.

 

 

Look, I am not saying that Leica M9 isnt a fantastic camera. however under certain conditions it displays some nasty purple fringing. So might like the purple fringe, me not so much.

 

LOL!!

 

Why can't you just admit you're wrong? It's not a big deal--we're all wrong sometimes. Or is this just your way of peppering a Leica forum with random and irrelevant Nikon lens shots? I mean, I like Nikkor lenses too, but seriously, you're not showing me anything I couldn't have taken with Leica glass.

 

And seriously, I also said the M9 is more prone in some pictures than the D3 to this kind of aberration; first because the lenses and camera are so damned sharp even wide open and secondly because the M9 lacks the DR of the D3. But that's not to say the D3 has infinite DR.

 

Well, short of me getting you a new and working internet connection, there's not much else I can do to prove you're wrong, but you're wrong. Odd that the links are not "dead" to me or Google The link goes to the actual JPEG file for the Noct. Maybe you should try reading the whole review, or it's discussion in various Nikon forums? Or do they not work either? And FWIW, Fred R is pretty well-known and respected in the Nikon community--and he's not at all a bad photographer.

 

It's too bad you can't see his site or work

 

Your posted shots really prove nothing... or not much. None of your examples have overwhelmed the sensor or have the bright points in focus. Oh--except the flames. Nice shot, but since when are flames green? What do your eyes tell you you're seeing around their outline?

 

And that couple shot? What on earth is that supposed to prove? Where would you expect a Nocti--or any lens-- to fringe there?

 

BTW--were those shots all wide open? All of these lenses clean up considerably by f2.8.

 

Anyway, all digital cameras exhibit this behaviour. Your thinking they don't doesn't make it so, unfortunately. Some lens + exposure + sensor combinations more, some less--yes--but it's still there.

 

If you haven't seen it, you're lucky. But your knowledge is factually--and demonstrably--incorrect.

 

And I'm not just "seeing stuff on the internet saying it must be true LOL!" There are so many logical flaws to your argument there (your stuff is on the net too Gregory!) that we just can't start.

 

You're correct: thinking *is* hard--and sometimes the lack of it is equally painful

Edited August 12, 2011 by Jamie Roberts

[ho_co]

Gregory--

From what I see, very few Web sites use the term you do, "58 1.2 Nocturnal," for this lens. Isn't it simply engraved Noct-Nikkor?

 

Maybe part of the Nikon disease is extending lens names, the opposite of the shortening of Leica lens names to just their final syllables (e.g. 'rit, 'cron etc)?

[Nikkor AIS]

I admit nothing.

It's funny that Nikon shots are irrelivent except for the fact they have no purple fringing. while the Leica M9 and Noctilux combo do. .

 

Ya I know AA filter. It's not the glass ...OO

 

 

I noticed that you didnt comment on the Nikkor 28 1.4 AF-D back lit shot with chome shot @ F 1.4 with again no purple fringing.

 

As far you taking the same shots with Leica glass:rolleyes:, Hmm nice try , I didnt know Leica made 28 1.4 , a 58 1.2 with hand ground asph elements or a 300 2.0 IF-ED .

 

So while you might think you could take the same shot withe your your Leica . Sorry to say, no you couldnt. Not the same thing.

 

Have a great purple fringe day with your M9.

 

 

Gregory

[Nikkor AIS]

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Great-White-North/i-Bp4vzq5/0/L/BBB52152-L.jpg

 

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/new-work/i-rwJcbHL/0/L/BBB6473-L.jpg

 

While the front of the Nikkor 58 1.2 Nocturnal says "Noct" it is refered to as the 58 1.2 Nocturnal in every Nikon book I have.

I dont like my name shortened so I show the 58 1.2 Nocturnal the same consideration.

 

The 58 1.2 Nocturnal got it's name from at least in part playing off the Leica 50 1.0

 

And the Nikon's 28 1.4 AF-D is pretty much a wide angle version of the 58 1.2 Nocturnal according to Nikon's One thousands nights.

 

Look, lets something straight , I love the 50 1.0 Noctilux for the Leica M. The fact that is has purple fringing on the M9 is just an oppurtunity to shoot some film with the Leica M3.

 

The fact is both these Noct's Leica and Nikkor are up there with two of my favorite lenses ever, And the fact that there is purple fringing on the M9 is not a huge issue to me. Now if I didnt have Nikkor 58 1.2 and the D3 I might feel differnt.

 

 

I do love a good discussion but as far as this issue being settled. It's far from.

I still think hand asperical Lenes elements play a role.

Anyone got a 35 1.4 II with the two hand ground elements and a M9.

 

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Calgary-Tower-Art-Show/i-Zm5qwgB/0/L/BBB9383-L.jpg

 

 

Gregory

Edited August 12, 2011 by Nikkor AIS

[AlanG]

I admit nothing.

It's funny that Nikon shots are irrelivent except for the fact they have no purple fringing. while the Leica M9 and Noctilux combo do. .

 

Ya I know AA filter. It's not the glass ...OO

 

 

I noticed that you didnt comment on the Nikkor 28 1.4 AF-D back lit shot with chome shot @ F 1.4 with again no purple fringing.

 

As far you taking the same shots with Leica glass:rolleyes:, Hmm nice try , I didnt know Leica made 28 1.4 , a 58 1.2 with hand ground asph elements or a 300 2.0 IF-ED .

 

So while you might think you could take the same shot withe your your Leica . Sorry to say, no you couldnt. Not the same thing.

 

Have a great purple fringe day with your M9.

 

 

Gregory

 

If you have a Nikon to M adapter, you could mount the Nikkor on the M9 and shoot the same scene of the building or something similar with the two lenses. This would clarify the issue. Alternatively, you could rig up something... perhaps a dark foam ring, that will let you hold the lens against the tripod mounted M9 for a dusk shot if you have a high enough shutter speed. By trial and error you could get a sharp image and see if the the purple fringe is there.

[Jamie Roberts]

I admit nothing.

It's funny that Nikon shots are irrelivent except for the fact they have no purple fringing. while the Leica M9 and Noctilux combo do. .

 

{snipped}

 

Gregory--seriously?--as the kids say.

 

Can you go to my web site or blog, or is that broken for you too? There's lots of Nocti shots, and lots of Nikon shots there too...

 

Again, Fred R's site very clearly shows purple fringing with the Noct-Nikkor and the D3 when the sensor is "overwhelmed" with light on sharp, high contrast edges (lights in that case).

 

I can clearly show it (and so can you) with the M9 in similar circumstances.

 

I can *also* show you tons and tons of Noctilux shots that don't exhibit purple fringing whatsoever--even with backlight, even with speculars. It all depends on the sensor threshold.

 

How many non-purple-fringing Noctilux shots would you like to see? LOL!

 

And you're right--I overstretched my claim by saying I could take the same shots with the Leica glass--I use a 28 2.0 not a 28 1.4 (though I don't care that much at that focal length) and I don't even own anything close to a fast 300mm (my 180 Elmarit R APO hardly qualifies).

 

As for the "bumper shot" on the 28mm--I didn't mean to miss it, but, um, where exactly would you expect CA there LOL? The sun isn't shining on the chrome, so not there... The black outline of the truck bed, barely kissed by the sun? Not high contrast in the slightest.

 

Nice shots BTW.

 

But let me see if I can demonstrate the effect here in a single shot....Nocti with no CA and Nocti w / sensor just beginning to shift...

 

So here's a Noctilux, f1.2 shot taken with an M9 (yesterday, as it turns out) right out of C1--no PS. No CA slider activated.

 

Very backlit.. shot directly into the sun...the sun is "on" the lens! Their faces are illuminated by the white house they're facing (out of the shot).

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Now, if I had cropped that shot, you wouldn't see any purple whatsoever--not even around the part of her hair where it's totally overexposed! Nothing--nada. High contrast and no CA. That's because the overexposure there is totally within a tolerable level on the sensor, and the front "fill" is helping keep the contrast to reasonable levels.

 

But where the sensor is totally flooded with light---there it is... where the actual *sun* is--along with the characteristic f 1.2 Nocti red veiling and planet flare....

 

Pretty easy to take care of, btw, in post. Or I could just leave it

 

Go shoot directly into the sun (setting even) with your D3 and Noct-Nikkor at 1.2. Focus on a backlit stop sign Let's see what it does

[Pindy]

I agree that Capture One is the best choice as it is written for AA filter-less CCDs, but most raw converters have defringing tools which are more or less effective.

 

Sadly, this does not include the otherwise excellent Lightroom 3. The tools are there, they just do nothing for purple fringing.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Pindy

[jaapv]

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Great-White-North/i-Bp4vzq5/0/L/BBB52152-L.jpg

 

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/new-work/i-rwJcbHL/0/L/BBB6473-L.jpg

 

While the front of the Nikkor 58 1.2 Nocturnal says "Noct" it is refered to as the 58 1.2 Nocturnal in every Nikon book I have.

I dont like my name shortened so I show the 58 1.2 Nocturnal the same consideration.

 

The 58 1.2 Nocturnal got it's name from at least in part playing off the Leica 50 1.0

 

And the Nikon's 28 1.4 AF-D is pretty much a wide angle version of the 58 1.2 Nocturnal according to Nikon's One thousands nights.

 

Look, lets something straight , I love the 50 1.0 Noctilux for the Leica M. The fact that is has purple fringing on the M9 is just an oppurtunity to shoot some film with the Leica M3.

 

The fact is both these Noct's Leica and Nikkor are up there with two of my favorite lenses ever, And the fact that there is purple fringing on the M9 is not a huge issue to me. Now if I didnt have Nikkor 58 1.2 and the D3 I might feel differnt.

 

 

I do love a good discussion but as far as this issue being settled. It's far from.

I still think hand asperical Lenes elements play a role.

Anyone got a 35 1.4 II with the two hand ground elements and a M9.

 

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Calgary-Tower-Art-Show/i-Zm5qwgB/0/L/BBB9383-L.jpg

 

 

Gregory

Hand ground?? That was the first version of the Noctilux - a collectors item. All asphericals at Leica are blank pressed and GNC ground.

[menos I M6]

Sadly, this does not include the otherwise excellent Lightroom 3. The tools are there, they just do nothing for purple fringing.

 

Pindy, the Lightroom control, you are referring to is a function, designed to take care of Chromatic Aberrations, not specifically purple fringing.

 

It has a small impact on PF in certain situations, but does often not help entirely.

 

Manual labor is most often needed :-(

I do a combination of CA control + specific desaturation of color channels + local adjustment brushing - again with desaturation.

 

It can be tedious, I strongly recommend, using a Wacom tablet for this kind of work.

 

Gregory, looks, like you picked up one of those endless LUF discussion fist fights, I almost often just over read or click away, as it seriously is tiring and has little to do with taking pictures, but more to do with the thing, we did back then in kindergarden - "Yeah, but my dad's got a V8 engine in his truck, … and my uncle is a helicopter pilot, …!"

 

So, to help the OP:

- try, to shoot at lower ISO, if possible - dynamic range is greater, PF might occur less strong

- try, to underexpose (expose more for the highlights) and pull back shadows in PP (I know, this is difficult with the digital M, but often is a better compromise, than hand painting out PF)

- try several different RAW converters with the same difficult file - they might tackle PF different

- brush up on photoshop technique and learn, how to "repair" such defects in PP

- get a Wacom tablet, to ease the PP with lot's of precise retouching

[thighslapper]

Sadly, this does not include the otherwise excellent Lightroom 3. The tools are there, they just do nothing for purple fringing.

 

In aperture I just use the dropper tool to pick up the fringe colour then globally desaturate ..... with night shots in particular this doesn't alter the overall colour balance appreciably ..... if it does, just selectively brush the colour out. Most decent PP programs have a similar process available.

[Pindy]

Pindy, the Lightroom control, you are referring to is a function, designed to take care of Chromatic Aberrations, not specifically purple fringing.

 

It has a small impact on PF in certain situations, but does often not help entirely.

 

It's the fact that there is a menu item called "Defringe" that makes you believe it's going to do something useful. Gotta try the targeted adjustment thing.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

Capture One Pro has a specific Purple Fringe tool.

You'll find a lot of technical postprocessing help in this thread:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-post-processing-forum/115965-fringing-technical-problem.html

 

Personally I find, in ACR/Photoshop that the simplest way, if the defringing of the highlight edges does not give the desired result, is to use the correction brush in raw to desaturate.

PS itself has three color fringe sliders under lens correction which in conjunction may help, otherwise the color replacement brush is quick and easy.

 

I cannot say about Lightroom, but there should be similar options.

Edited August 13, 2011 by jaapv