DMR History? Let's Design the R-10 !!!!

[rsolomon]

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if they only listened .......

[jrc]

One of the things that would have to be done before designing an R10 is deciding on the target market. I don't believe that Leica would ever have a chance of regaining the mass "employed" photojournalist market, although some freelancers might use them, as would independent pros and artists. That means that at the most basic level, the two key components will be absolute image quality and ergonomics.

 

I think they would best sell themselves as a "compact MF camera."

 

Perhaps with a non-35mm legacy aspect ratio -- 3:4, 4:5, if the lenses can handle that.

 

Waterproof; at least one good TS lens; one amazing 60mm or 100mm macro; some kind of interoperability/adapter that would be easy to use with Leitz microscopes; in-body IS.

 

And importantly, I think, build on the experience of cramming electronics into an M8 package, and cut down the size. The DSLRs, like Nikon and Canon and Leica, are elephants. Work some way around that, even if you have to cut battery capacity. I say it's better to have 2 batteries that will do 300 shots each, than one that will do 600, if you could cut the size in half. I think Leica should try to trim size and weight everywhere they can. Right now, we're verging on the point where you just about won't be able to fly with a full professional DSLR system as carry-on on commercial airlines; too big and heavy. Cutting the body size by half would be a big step toward solving the problem.

 

Another thing that would be neat: engineer the system (if this is possible) so that users would "discover" that it's 100% compatible with the Nikon flash system, which I think is the best. (You can use late-model Nikon flashes on the M8, but only in manual mode. It'd be really cool if they could engineer a non-patent-violating way to suck into the automatic or programmable levels of the Nikon system.)

 

JC

[lieberdavid]

I like the style of the proposed R 10, except for the hyphen between the "R" and the "10" on the front.

[mwilliamsphotography]

The hyphen was deliberate ... it reads "RIO" without it.

 

Here's the back side.

 

Okay, I buy the impracticality of a flip screen, and probably wouldn't use it much if was there. But let's at least make it more of a 35mm ratio.

 

I left the Exposure Compensation switch where it was on the DMR for thumb control without taking the camera from your eye.

 

Added a thumb button on the top right to instantly activate Auto ISO ... ( this may need a safety switch ).

 

Battery in the grip ... a common one like Canon uses.

 

SDHC cards feed in from the side.

 

I buy 16 meg full frame ... better chance for high ISO performance. 16 bit would be nice.

 

Adobe's Thomas Knoll at least consults on the software and firmware. It's crap that the M8 came with yet another software program to buy.

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[lieberdavid]

I agree on the design of the proposed R10, except for the megapixel count. I am surprised at the frequent comments that "10 MP is enough", or "10 MP is more than sufficient" or "what do you want more than 10 MP for", etc. I can understand that 10 MP is enough for small prints, say up to 8 x 12, but for large prints (I am thinking up to 30 x 45), I cannot believe that 10 MP or even 18 MP is nearly enough. With my R series film cameras I have made prints this size with wonderful results, and any R digital camera I buy must be able to produce results at least as good as those I have been getting on film for years. When that point is reached, then I'll buy. We sure are not there yet.

 

The R 10 needs to have as large a pixel count as the state of technology will allow for two reasons. One is to obtain the necessary resolution for large prints as mentioned above.

 

The other reason is for marketing. You have to keep up with the competition, and if 40 MP sensors are available, Canon and Nikon are going to have them. Makers with less will not be considered as top quality and will lose a lot of sales.

[lieberdavid]

Hi Marc,

 

I know the hypen was deliberate. How about just leaving a blank space? R 10.

 

David

[lieberdavid]

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Hi Marc,

 

Your R-10 is a beatiful camera, that's for sure. Back as well as front. I sure hope Leica comes out with something top quality soon.

 

Best, David

[mwilliamsphotography]

David, you sound like one of my advertising clients ... design an award winning ad that sells the crap out of their product, and all they can do is fly-speck the thing : -0

 

IF Leica calls me and want to use the design, I'll tell them the hyphen has to go just for you ... LOL.

 

Just pulling your leg man. Thanks for commenting.

[Jamie Roberts]

Mark,

 

It's gorgeous, just gorgeous. I know where all the peices came from, and it's still gorgeous. I want it yesterday!!

 

@ Allen--it's not a matter of cramming 40 MP into the same 35mm form factor (otherwise the photosites are too small and you're actually more diffraction limited than you are by lens alone, if I understand this correctly).

 

You need a large sensor to do more megapixels effectively, so you're limited by the form factor.

 

By the way, I'm not sure what print process you're using, but colour depth and dithering make more effect on the final print than resolution alone, at least up to about 30 by 40 (though you do notice degradation in prints smaller than that compared with MF digitial; but certainly not, in my experience, compared with printing 35 film. Not even Tech Pan).

 

 

@ David--the R system has a stellar 100 and a stellar macro lens already. Coincidentally enough, they're the same lens! The 100 APO Elmarit Macro is one of the sharpest 35mm lenses I've ever used; think the sharpest M lenses here. It rocks. With the right adapter, it will also yield 1:1 macro photographs.

 

They do need a good T/S lens; they could do an amazing business just in architecture with the wides they have available!

[Bob Ross]

The new sensor of Kodak is a KAI-16000. It is a CCD interline transfer sensor. The CCDs used by Lieca are CCD full frame transfer sensors, this is, KAF sensors.

Hi Ruben,

It appears that Kodak's interline sensor might be coming of age with the KAI-10100 used in Oly's E-400/410. The added features over the FFT sensors are that they can support Live View and binning. The image quality out of the E-400 is quite a bit better than I expected, if the samples that I have seen are any indication. The pixes are 4.75µm.

Bob

[sdai]

Should the aspect ratio of the rear LCD be 3:2?

[thrid]

- 18 - 20MP, with the ability to allocate half the sensor receptors to highlight exposure for extended dynamic range. Not sure if this is technically possible, but it would be very clever if it was.

- Full frame

- 5fps

- 16bit color

- Clean 1600asa

- WEATHER SEALED!

 

$5000

 

 

PS: Nice pic. I'll take one.

[Riley]

aspect ratio 3x2 or 4x3

LiveView

this time talk to Metz for flash before the thing is committed, integrate a Metz TTL

put a control wheel for flash ev (+/-) right front

put a control wheel for iso on the top deck where rewind was

put a control wheel for WB on the left front

put a speed control wheel top deck at right

modes lever P/AE/S/M

ev lever 3(+/-) EV

[ptomsu]

Became a great camera, if 22MP and FF and ISO3200 with same quality as Canon and Nikon like flash system and small enough size I would preorder.

 

Peter

[Riley]

Became a great camera, if 22MP and FF and ISO3200 with same quality as Canon and Nikon like flash system and small enough size I would preorder.

 

Peter

 

such a camera might cost $12k IF it where possible

a more rational specification might be 12Mp for low noise

with 6400 in view with good software

i doubt 22Mp would provide all that much gain, cite 5 to 8Mp, 10 to 16Mp

but higher iso undoubtedly would

for pro cameras, resolution without mush, and control is where its at

not an impressive catalogue spec for boy toy wannabes

[ptomsu]

In 2 years from now a high end pro camera will be FF and at least 22MP - so where would you position an R10 then if it has only 16MP???

[Riley]

Its well known here that the D2 at 5Mp, easily competes with 8Mp for resolution yet it has just 62% of the pixels. I indeed have an LC-1 and an E-300, not that there is a lot wrong with the E-300, that after all has a larger sensor, some 225sqmm in area v/s D2 of 58sqmm

 

Based on that notion, a dSLR at 22Mp could then be defeated in resolution by a sensor of just 13.6Mp, and an area less than 25% its size.16Mp sounds like an advantage in comparison.

[pascal_meheut]

In 2 years from now a high end pro camera will be FF and at least 22MP - so where would you position an R10 then if it has only 16MP???

 

We heard that so many times when the DMR was announced at "only" 10 Mpix. So is the M8 btw, no more Mpix than an Eos400D...

 

Yet, they seem to compete on the marketplace when it comes to image quality. And I guess a 16 Mpix R10 would do the same against a 22 Mpix Canon or Nikon.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Should the aspect ratio of the rear LCD be 3:2?

 

Well, we'd want to leave a little room for some file data.

 

Based on heavy use of a DSLR for commercial and wedding work, here are the simple icons I'd want listed on the LCD preview. ISO, flash indicator, exposure comp used marked prominately, what file format was being shot, and SD card count ( the photo inserted in the LCD space is an uncropped full frame ratio from a Canon 1DsMKII).

 

I would preserve the histogram overlay option like the DMR uses. IMO they got that right.

 

16 meg would do it for me. Trying to make one camera do everything is problematic. Canon and Nikon offer multiple Pro cameras for different tasks.

 

IMO, the R-I0 at 16 meg, 16 bit would provide ample image quality for most any application, yet allow for higher ISOs and provide a reasonably managable workflow environment.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[rsolomon]

so how do you actually get leica to look and listen to this thread..... GREAT ideas and GREAT visuals.

 

rich