timbedsted1234 Posted February 10, 2007 Share #21 Posted February 10, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well - you seem not to be ready for the future! C is designing a new lens series and this will outperform all existing 35mm lenses. Hard to belive that one does not want to open to the future - are you already dead or do you now start to live? Peter Peter, Seeing is believing;) So far we have only the old DS series and L series glass and here Leica can certainly hold its own /T Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 10, 2007 Posted February 10, 2007 Hi timbedsted1234, Take a look here Dmr Discontinued? This Si Confirmed. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jamie Roberts Posted February 10, 2007 Share #22 Posted February 10, 2007 Well - you seem not to be ready for the future! C is designing a new lens series and this will outperform all existing 35mm lenses. Hard to belive that one does not want to open to the future - are you already dead or do you now start to live? Peter Peter--I find this "Canon is designing a new lens line that will outperform all other lenses in the 35mm form factor" bit more farfetched than the "R10 being announced at PMA" bit! LOL!! Zeiss said that too about their newest dSLR line. So far, the experience hasn't quite lived up to the hype. Of course, I'd love to be wrong--Leica needs some competition IMO! But we'll see what actually happens, here. Also, Canon has just brought to market a 50 1.2L that--while exceptionally good for Canon--still doesn't nearly beat the 50 R Summilux in edge conditions (backlight, flare, etc). If they brought out an even newer, better performing EOS line, that would completely cannibalize their L glass. Why on earth would they do that? Unless they're ditching the EOS mount and form factor, of course, but then we're talking Canon vs Hassy, not Leica R! And if I were a betting man, and to feed the rumour mill, I'd say the next super lens (I mean this sincerely) Canon will resurrect will be the 200 f1.8L, which is probably the best lens they've ever made. I hope it sells for less than 3K US, too, which is what the *used* ones are going for now. I'd buy one in a mortgage breaking moment! As for the 22MP 1ds2, heck, people were saying that was coming *the week after* I bought my 1ds2 The problem is, unless they change their colour depth to more like the M8 and DMR, I couldn't care less how many pixels they cram into a 35mm form factor; we'll see how they get around diffraction issues, too You only need so many pixels to print at normal sizes anyway. IOW, the sweet spot for resolution (which still doesn't influence colour depth) in the current 35 form factor seems to be around 16mp... so we'll see. @ Carsten--you're absolutely right about the dealer channels on the DMR. They won't announce anything till that is settled. I gotta add this now too. I love my M8 so much that I've completely turned around on the whole issue. Before the M8 was released, I used to say "well, if it's as good as the DMR in a portable body, that will rock." Now I'm thinking "well, if the R10 is as good as the M8 with longer lenses, that will rock!!" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 10, 2007 Share #23 Posted February 10, 2007 Well, it is for me more than disappointing, that Leica finishes production of the DMR while they do not have a replacement for the R system digital photography. I’m not sure when exactly production of the DMR ended, put if Leica’s supply of DMRs has dried up just now, the last batch of units made by Imacon will probably have left Copenhagen a couple of months ago. By now, nearly everyone who wanted a DMR will have bought one, and whoever is still undecided should make up his or her mind now, while there are still a few units available from dealers. Having said that I guess there will be much surprise from Canon soon, there is talks about a new FF 22Mp DSLR, which might come with new high performance glass in order to make optimal use of this immense amount of MP. It should be out on market by September 07.If this is really the case then I see the end of the R system pretty close. Why? Because the big asset of Leica was always the superior performance of their glass. If C comes out with a new lens line, then they for sure will have done their homework, making the difference to R glass dissappear and have additionally all their expertise in AF and IS, which Leica at best can start to build up now. That’s too much “if” and “might” and “should” for my liking. Even when a 22 MP EOS seems likely, neither of us really knows what Canon has up its sleeve, and we know nothing about Leica’s plans for the R system either. But we will know soon enough, so why not just wait and see, rather than spreading FUD? If the worst should happen (whatever that is), your DMR will still give you the same quality that it always did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 10, 2007 Share #24 Posted February 10, 2007 Peter, I would love it if you would post what your sources are for your claim that Canon's future lens line will be better than all existing lenses, or whatever it is that you are claiming. The truth is that Canon absolutely does not need to make lenses with the same quality as Leica's lenses, because they are already the top dog among the camera makers, making lenses as they have been. Leica's lenses have always been excellent, yet no one has ever felt a need to get their lenses to that level. They are, quite simply, different markets. Canon cameras and lenses are good enough for almost anyone, and we retentives are simply the rest, which is enough for Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted February 10, 2007 Share #25 Posted February 10, 2007 Good news for us photographers and bad news for both Canon and Leica is ... with the surfacing of these focus confirmation enabling R->EOS adapters, people don't have to buy Leica's cameras nor Canon's lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 11, 2007 Share #26 Posted February 11, 2007 Well, it is for me more than disappointing, that Leica finishes production of the DMR while they do not have a replacement for the R system digital photography. This and the lack of any communication about their future plans for the R system is not helpful, especially if you take the high price level of this system into account. Having said that I guess there will be much surprise from Canon soon, there is talks about a new FF 22Mp DSLR, which might come with new high performance glass in order to make optimal use of this immense amount of MP. It should be out on market by September 07. If this is really the case then I see the end of the R system pretty close. Why? Because the big asset of Leica was always the superior performance of their glass. If C comes out with a new lens line, then they for sure will have done their homework, making the difference to R glass dissappear and have additionally all their expertise in AF and IS, which Leica at best can start to build up now. Who would want to go then with the Leica R system in the future, even if it adds AF and IS? But it will bring negative surprises like with the M8 as well! For sure not me :-)) Peter If Canon introduces a line of lenses that outperform the Leica R lenses, that will be quite an accomplishment, especially at the wide end. I'll hold off on any judgement until I've tested these new lenses but I wonder if perhaps marketing is (again) getting ahead of reality. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macusque Posted February 11, 2007 Share #27 Posted February 11, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) The truth is that Canon absolutely does not need to make lenses with the same quality as Leica's lenses, because they are already the top dog among the camera makers, making lenses as they have been. Leica's lenses have always been excellent, yet no one has ever felt a need to get their lenses to that level. They are, quite simply, different markets. Canon cameras and lenses are good enough for almost anyone, and we retentives are simply the rest, which is enough for Leica. I always appreciate the lucidity of this guy, it should be his anglo-saxon blood Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted February 11, 2007 Share #28 Posted February 11, 2007 If Canon introduces a line of lenses that outperform the Leica R lenses, that will be quite an accomplishment, especially at the wide end. I'll hold off on any judgement until I've tested these new lenses but I wonder if perhaps marketing is (again) getting ahead of reality. Cheers, Sean Sean--well said. I'll bet you a dollar right now that Canon won't *ever* make something that looks like the 80 R Summilux shot wide open with strong backlight And if they best the 50, well, that will be, as you say, "quite an accomplishment." We haven't even mentioned the sharpest of Leica R glass, either; sharpness isn't everything. But even at the telephoto lens, where Canon is excellent, they have nothing like the 100mm Elmarit Macro. And yes, the fabled 200 1.8 L would be a great comeback; then there would be something comparible to the Leica 180s for the Canon. The current telephoto glass, while good, isn't in the same league, again, in edge conditions. BTW, I still shoot the very versatile 70-200 2.8L IS; but when I want absolute image quality the Elmarit 180 comes out (the Summicron is huge. Really, really, huge...). The simple truth of the matter is that if there were a *good* 22MP 35mm dSLR then Leica glass would still outperform the sensor resolution in terms of raw information. But resolution is only a part of the story in any case, which is why I prefer my DMR files to my 1ds2 files, even shot with the same Leica glass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted February 11, 2007 Share #29 Posted February 11, 2007 Well - you seem not to be ready for the future! C is designing a new lens series and this will outperform all existing 35mm lenses.Peter Are they hiring Leica to design them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted February 11, 2007 Share #30 Posted February 11, 2007 Canon sell on 3 price brackets 1. El Cheapo, called kit 2. The sama as Nikon, whatever that is 3. Ridiculous money, so that no-one actually buys it and knows what its like. Then when you buy it, and know what its like, you cant get rid of it, because no-one knows what its like Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted February 11, 2007 Share #31 Posted February 11, 2007 Canon is a machine ... printing money, there's a lot Leica needs to learn - no offense intended. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJL Posted February 11, 2007 Share #32 Posted February 11, 2007 Another couple of cents.... Canon is serving several different markets for sure. The added issue is the total volume of product they must produce for some of these markets. The buyer base is also different. C owners cringe at "top end" lenses that cost $1K or more. That is barely an entry point for Leica lenses. There are some things that Canon does really, really well. They build an absolute tank of a pro camera. I have three of them and they are pretty darn near indestructable. (They also weigh a ton each, which goes with the build.) Canon also makes some absolutely stellar telephoto lenses, especailly at the longer end. They pretty much "own" the action sports and a lot of hte PJ market, and sell a gazillion digicams. That last part is important, as it has been the money maker for them, Nikon and everybody else up to this point on the digital front. Leica comes into that game at a significant disadvantage. O.K., so go for the top end....well, you start to bump up against the MF market there if you are trying to compete on overall image quality and utility. However, that is where the R-10 needs to focus. The Canon 1DsMkII is a great camera, but does not have the glass to support it for most of the stuff outside the sports world and PJ world, where IQ is less critical. (This is my opinion, so others will have differing views.) To me Leica has better glass by a long shot. The R bodies are not going to compete in the rain and dust and mud and scrums like the Canon 1-series bodies do now. Heck, Nikon does not even compete well there and they have equivalent gear. Leica, with the new R needs to carve out the "MF equivalent" niche on the 35mm format. That they have done to some degree with the DMR, but the bar is much, much higher now. They need to put out a camera that can and will be used by a growing number of photographers to get images that nobody is really able to get right now with the Canon (lack of really high quality glass) or MF (lack of true portability, flexibility and files that are easy to work with). There is a niche that is not really being filled right now, and Leica is within striking distance of it. Will Canon come out with a new EOS body to compete? So what if they do. Unless the glass gets significantly better on the lower focal length end, it still will not produce the images. Their new 85/1.2L II and the 50/1.2L are starts, but they have a long way to go to fill all the gaps below, where things are needed. Just some perspectives from a guy shooting Canon 1-series and M8, and looking for a way to replace the Canons. Cannot do it just yet for the long glass and rugged bodies. Are they the highest quality images one wants? Maybe not, but they are about the only ones that can deliver them consistently under the worst conditions, so AN image is far better than NO image. Leica, build me an R that can outshine C and N below the longest tele ranges and you have a winner. (Please weather seal it also.) LJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted February 11, 2007 Share #33 Posted February 11, 2007 If an R10 would have 22MP, FF, 16bit true colour depth, smaller and sealed body and same price as 1DnMarkxyz and available end of 2007 - then I would preorder already. Here we go :-)) Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 11, 2007 Share #34 Posted February 11, 2007 Personally I think that 22MP is wishful thinking, but that is just an opinion. I have posted this little blurb once before, but there is something interesting happening in the market right now, and Canon stands to lose because of it, and Leica stands to gain: The megapixel race is more or less over. To give an example, the Canon G7 has a sensor with pixels so small that the lens is diffraction-limited at openings wider than the actual lens achieves. This means that this camera never reaches the full capability of the sensor, due to limitations in lens technology. There can be dramatic improvements in pixel density, but only incremental improvements in lens technology. The same problem is also slowly hitting DSLRs, where the Canon 1Ds2 has a higher pixel density than the 5D already, and the Canon lenses (not all, but several), are hitting their limits. I think there is probably enough leeway left in the Canon high-end lens lineup and pixel densities for one last push, but after that, the whole market changes, and becomes more like the film camera market, in that cameras will change much slower, and rather than a break-neck technological race, it becomes a more mature long-haul market. Strategical rather than tactical, if you will. Leica has always played in this market. Leica does not rely on fast development cycles to make money. They have a small, very high-end niche where they slowly but continuously make money on their lenses, and once in a while introduce a new camera. Canon's business model is based on planned obsolescence, and they could have real trouble in a market with slower growth. Of course, no one knows exactly how it will play out, but once (and if!) Leica overcomes its current difficulties, and learns the necessary skills for releasing a digital camera without problems, then they are really well positioned for the future. From the sound of things, Leica is selling all their M products as fast as they can make them at the moment, so this is not just a pipedream. Given the higher quality of their lenses, they may well be able to go to higher pixel counts than the competition, with meaningful increases in resolution. It will be very interesting to see what happens at PMA and Photokina this year. As a sidenote, Dr. Kaufmann, who bought Leica, is a very shrewd and successful long-term investor. One would not expect that he bought Leica without knowing what a precarious situation it was in. Additionally, one expects that he had a strong plan in mind for improving that situation. I think that he saw the end of the pixel-race before most, and realised what this means for Leica's position. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bernd Banken Posted February 11, 2007 Share #35 Posted February 11, 2007 Pascal, to compete against the marketleaders in the field of DSLR Leica has not enough resources in terms of manpower, patents and money. The very narrow segment of RF cameras helped Leica to launch such a model because no other competitor was willing to compete or could see an increasing market TO EARN MONEY... Therefore Leica and the M8 will be a exotic tool for professionals in a special field and Leicafans who have lenses from their former bodies etc. The M8 is an example how week Leica was prepared to launch this item: For me like the OS Linux: A lot of people working at different places in the world, beeing specialists for color-work etc. and all together they managed the issues in terms of AWB etc. But what came from Leica? ?? ?? Correct! In the case of a digital SLR body it would be the hell for all Leica and early adopters. Bernd Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted February 11, 2007 Share #36 Posted February 11, 2007 No Photokina until 2008 - so PMA in March will be interesting. I don't think the R can wait until Photokina 2008 for a future direction to be announced. Looking at the PMA web-site, it's not clear that Leica are exhibiting themselves individually, more as one of a number of companies in a German "pavilion". Probably just a logistics thing... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted February 11, 2007 Share #37 Posted February 11, 2007 PMA sure will be interesting me thinks I recon the thing about G7 was to better differentiate it to the dSLRs defeaturing seems to inhabit the low end dSLRs too, xti and D40 all of which says to me that nothing much is changing in the mid range Canon gear What with Pentax, Sony Matsushita, Samsung, Sigma all in for a chop now Canon and Nikon are in for a difficult and unusual time And if Olympus dont cut it this time they will be down from 3rd to 5th in a year but accounts of rumors seem to indicate Oly is back on its feet, and has goals to meet Within this cataclysm of mid range events, there is still opportunity at the top for Leica, it isnt as different as all that to equip a new casting with DMR electronics no doubt this work has been going on for some time, even through the release of M8 Leica would have learned by now, what terms they need to meet, what changes need be made, what tools they need to access. but they best not be in a hurry if they want it to work Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted February 11, 2007 Share #38 Posted February 11, 2007 I sorta see it your way Bernd.... plus a heck of a lot of siege mentality going on, speculation is a no brainer. I will just save my pesos so I can buy one of these black and white monochrome type of cameras a m8 and give up colour photography Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted February 11, 2007 Share #39 Posted February 11, 2007 I just fear that we will see nothing new at PMA 2007 from Leica on the R front :-(( Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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