barjohn Posted February 9, 2007 Share #1 Posted February 9, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I sent the following email to Leica USA today. I will post the answer when I recieve it. I recently purchased an M8, serial #31026xx. As I understood it from the Leica Forum and other Forums as well as from reading Sean Reid’s postings and site, Firmware version 1.10 was to be released around the 1st of this month. This firmware release is clearly needed to address numerous issues that I am sure you are already aware of. My concern and the concern being expressed by other M8 owners is that there are rumors that Leica and Jenoptiks have had a falling out and we may never see the promised upgrade, or it will be very very late, neither of which would be an acceptable solution. I really like the camera but in this price range I want to see a fix for many of these issues. I am sure you can understand our concern. Would you be so kind as to provide an update on what is happening, how soon can we reasonably expect this upgrade and are the rumors accurate and if so how will the dispute, if it exists, effect Leica customers. Respectfully, John Griffith, Esq. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 9, 2007 Posted February 9, 2007 Hi barjohn, Take a look here Ver. 1.10 Firmware Late? Explanation Please.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Shootist Posted February 9, 2007 Share #2 Posted February 9, 2007 Very nicely phrased. Hopefully they will respond with something else then a form letter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted February 9, 2007 Share #3 Posted February 9, 2007 I've never, ever seen Leica say they'd have the firmware out the 1st of the month! You don't do that with software development, generally And I, for one, want to see them get it right; not rushed, with the M8 firmware. So hang in there. Given the investment and responsiveness of Leica to the M8 so far, you're going to see a firmware fix; I have no doubt about it. Heck, there's already been one and the camera's only been out since November. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted February 9, 2007 Share #4 Posted February 9, 2007 Apart from cyan corner correction with IR filters, what is the promised firmware 1.10 meant to do? The current one seems fine to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 9, 2007 Author Share #5 Posted February 9, 2007 Jamie, you may be correct; however, I do remember reading it somewhere, either in this forum or one of the others. I too would like it to be correct. As to never having a promissed date in software development, that is simply not true. It is true that there are times when the date isn't met or to meet the date you have to leave out some fixes or features you would like to have included, but with the nature of software development, you would never get it out the door if perfection were the criteria. Since I manage a large software development group, I know first hand that if I left it up to my developers and didn't put deadlines on them it would always be at the 95% and never ready to go. We had a target date for one of our developments last August and we had no choice but to hit the target as the ship it was going to be installed on was leaving so you do what you have to do and we made our deadline! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. borger Posted February 9, 2007 Share #6 Posted February 9, 2007 Apart from cyan corner correction with IR filters, what is the promised firmware 1.10 meant to do? The current one seems fine to me. Fixing some new types of banding, Getting a more stable camera in general by handling issues as "camera-freezing", issues using certain SD cards etc.... etc. Last is perhaps the most important for me .... not that i had any issue so far .. but to avoid them in the future Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 9, 2007 Author Share #7 Posted February 9, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Apart from cyan corner correction with IR filters, what is the promised firmware 1.10 meant to do? The current one seems fine to me. Things like white balance issues, some banding issues at high ISO, numerous software crashes or hangs, battery charging issues and calibration. For example, I found a new one by accident, select the sensor cleaning function and it pops up the message to push the shutter button to open the shutter. Set the camera down while you get the brush ready, take off the lens and then push the button...nothing happens, try turning the camera off...it won't turn off, try getting it to respond to any button...nothing...the camera software is locked up. Take out the battery and reinsert and the camera seems to function normally but put it back in sesnor clean mode and it hangs again. Change the battery (battery in the camera shows full charge) and now sensor clean function works. If the battery is low, it is supposed to prevent the sesnor clean function but not hang the camera. In any case it only happens if there is much of a dealy between selecting sensor clean and pushing the shutter button. Clearly, this is a software bug. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george + Posted February 9, 2007 Share #8 Posted February 9, 2007 Just for the record, I have not seen any Leica commitment on software delivery either. Rumor had it for February. Which has another 19 days to go. Having been involved in software deliveries since 1957 I have seldom seen an on time AND complete release. But may be some of you have. If so, I would love to hear details. And by the way, I may be just lucky but other than the IR issues - which are being fixed this month - my camera works fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted February 9, 2007 Share #9 Posted February 9, 2007 Things like white balance issues, some banding issues at high ISO, I had forgotten about the vertical band issue (I personally haven't encountered it but it is clearly a genuine issue for some). I'm not sure that we will see much in the way of a white balance fix with 1.10 - I suspect that the AWB issues run a bit deeper than what can be fixed in firmware. What I would like to see happen is for Leica/Phase One to adjust the profiles used in the DNG conversion so that they more easily match the colour of the JPEGs (which I prefer). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveEP Posted February 9, 2007 Share #10 Posted February 9, 2007 Unfortunately, rumour on the internet has a habbit of becoming 'fact/truth' for those reading it. I am in software development myself, and rarely commit to new release dates unless I know I can meet them in the next few days. I would not commit to something several months away, because too much can slip in that time. I would rather wait a week, a month or ever a quarter for the firmware to be right, to be tested and to be as bug free as any software can reasonably be expected to be. Asking software developers to rush this sort of thing is like saying give us beta code now, call it release, then don't be surprised if we scream at you because you got something wrong. Sorry, let them take the time to get it right.... pushing for answers on release dates won't bring them any nearer - it will just divert some one's time and effort away from the release so that they can answer questions. I doubt very much that they will delay it any longer that required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP3 Posted February 9, 2007 Share #11 Posted February 9, 2007 Come on, are we just get to know Leica? M8 is the only 100% German product that was launched on time with their schedule. Though many will describe it as a bread half baked... With all the experience on DMR and other launches, is it better off emotionally to put in some more time buffer for M8 v1.10? Sit back and relax taking pictures with our v1.09 ! Cheers Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 9, 2007 Author Share #12 Posted February 9, 2007 Just for the record, I have not seen any Leica commitment on software delivery either. Rumor had it for February. Which has another 19 days to go. Having been involved in software deliveries since 1957 I have seldom seen an on time AND complete release. But may be some of you have. If so, I would love to hear details. And by the way, I may be just lucky but other than the IR issues - which are being fixed this month - my camera works fine. It is your big AND that is the issue and while you have been at it a few years longer than me (I started in the early 60's) the issue would be what is meant by complete? Software by its very nature is never complete unless you say it is. People always want it to do just one more thing...could you change this...etc. I'm sure you know what I mean. You have to prioritize and you get out the higher priority fixes first, then features and this buys you time to address the lesser issues. While the lateness or lack there of as the case may be, is important, my real concern is whether Jenoptiks (the software developers) and Leica have had a falling out as that could have far more serious consequences. Suppose, for example, that Leica did not own the source code, how would fixes ever get made? As much as I really like the camera, if it turned out that Leica had no way to fix bugs becasue they did not have rights to the software beyond a license for the current software used in the camera I would send it back and demand a refund. If you have been in the softaer business any length of time you know what would be at stake. There was a project that occured before I joined the organization where they worked with a software developer, paid over $6 million dollars and didn't wind up with rights to the source code and when the company went under before the software was fully functional, the Navy was stuck with a piece of software they couldn't complete, support or maintain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 9, 2007 Author Share #13 Posted February 9, 2007 Dave EP, I wish I worked in your world. I don't have the luxury of being able to wait until days before I am ready to release to say now it is ready. I have to make commitments months and sometimes years in advance. My funding depends on my being right more than I am wrong. If I told my sponsors you will get it when I am ready to tell you it is ready they would say that is fine, we will take our money elsewhere. Our sponsors have to make commitments years in advance of obtaining funding and I am funded for a particular program for a fixed time. If I don't deliver I won't see any more funding and my organization will be out of business. Edit: Attached is a snap shot from Sean's on where I got February date. Of course Sean could have been mistaken but I assumed he got the information from Leica. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/15763-ver-110-firmware-late-explanation-please/?do=findComment&comment=166538'>More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted February 9, 2007 Share #14 Posted February 9, 2007 John, I'll second your report on camera freezing during sensor cleaning. I had this happen while cleaning both a demo camera and my friends M8. Having read the issues about cameras freezing indefinitely this really scared me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted February 9, 2007 Share #15 Posted February 9, 2007 {snipped}There was a project that occured before I joined the organization where they worked with a software developer, paid over $6 million dollars and didn't wind up with rights to the source code and when the company went under before the software was fully functional, the Navy was stuck with a piece of software they couldn't complete, support or maintain. John--I've had my own experience with software stuff too. I agree there are deadlines, and DEADLINES. But generally--unless there's a compelling market reason for it (like your funding running away elsewhere)--most times people take their time to get fixes (like firmware) right, not fast (and "perfect enough" is ok with me). Anyway--I think Leica learned the source code lesson from the DMR--at least, I hope they did. They'd have to be pretty silly at this point NOT to have contractual safeguards and key ownership agreements for M8 updates in place, especially given what happened with Imacon (not that Leica could have foreseen what happened, but better safe than sorry here). So I have every confidence M8 firmware is forthcoming. You just don't spend the money Leica has spent on hardware upgrades and lens rebates without being committed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 9, 2007 Share #16 Posted February 9, 2007 Patience is the key word of the day:D This stuff needs to be tested first Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george + Posted February 9, 2007 Share #17 Posted February 9, 2007 John, I guess we have both seen quite a few things and MAY have a more complete understanding of issues than the average user. (a word that has many connotations) Your quote comes from Sean, not Leica. I respect Sean and his views but he neither works for Leica nor is TTBOMK their official mouth. And all he wrote was that in FEBRUARY Leica PLANS to introduce 1.10. That is a long way from a Leica commitment for February One. At any rate, have a nice shooting week-end! :) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronJ Posted February 9, 2007 Share #18 Posted February 9, 2007 Well, at least Leica isn't using Panasonic software in the M8. Excessive NR, anyone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venkman Posted February 9, 2007 Share #19 Posted February 9, 2007 Given the fact that the filters are shipping and the firmware is mentioned in the manual that's included with every filter, I trust they will release shortly. Dirk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveEP Posted February 9, 2007 Share #20 Posted February 9, 2007 Dave EP, I wish I worked in your world. I don't have the luxury of being able to wait until days before I am ready to release to say now it is ready. I have to make commitments months and sometimes years in advance. The difference is that when that date arrives, you have to release it regardless of how much there is left to do.... either that or you have to give your self soooo much extra time in the estimate that you can't possible fail right? .....and we all know how work expands to fill the time available for it, and that customers always want to tweak things from any original spec they first thought of Well good luck to you all, and happy shooting with v1.09...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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