DMR discontinued?

[mitchell]

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I agree with Guy about the M8. It is bound too close to the tradition of film M's. I hasten to add it is my favorite camera ever.

 

But, it would certainly benefit from a built-in grip, and one that's more comfortable than the current add-on. Also, like Guy I wish it had a DMR like electronic release. Use the M lenses in a camera with the same high quality, but designed ground up as digital.

 

A new R back would be a great mistake. We need a ground up digital for R lenses. Smaller, lighter than DMR. Weather proof. It doesn't need to have Auto Focus. It does need to have best image quality, and a different niche than Canon.

 

Surprise us like the M8. It has certain innovations like file size handling, and image quality competitive with larger sensor cameras. The introduction problems (quality control, marketing and comunication) obscure what a great job they did with the overall camera.

 

I'm not sure the situation is as dire as many seem to think. They seem to be selling a lot of M8's, M lenses, and Pany's. It will be interesting to see financial results for this period.

 

Best,

 

Mitchell

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[sdai]

A new R back would be a great mistake. We need a ground up digital for R lenses. Smaller, lighter than DMR. Weather proof. It doesn't need to have Auto Focus. It does need to have best image quality, and a different niche than Canon.

 

Have you used the 4/3 Oly lenses or the Nikon DX lenses ... ? they are not smaller, not lighter than the FF models.

[rfleica]

re oversized ff. bear in mind that anything larger than 24mm vertical will need a correspondingly bigger mirror. that will impact the required retrofocus design. unless a new mirror tech is available eg a hinge...or a pellicle type...i think feasibility with current r lenses is doubtful.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I think we need to look at something else that we have not discussed yet and that is the management of leica now. There is a new CEO that seems to be pretty aggressive about the market leica plays in and there maybe some change in the wind on how Leica as a company thinks. They know there not going to go anywhere without new product and new people to buy them. We did that little survey about our ages and it averaged what 49 years old. Man that is a old age bracket for them. they need to recruit the younger crowd to move forward. So they need forward thinking product to bring that generation into Leica. What i find interesting is that i am reall fairly new to Leica although watched them for many years but how this culture and company will change in the future to survive will be interesting to see unfold.

[Riley]

I have always thought this was a very expensive solution, for a tiny market

perhaps it is the same to manufacture ?

 

logically there is some replacement instream, maybe this time it will appeal more to a wider audience, that would be the objective, I guess we are all left to wonder just what

 

Guy, just what did you mean by 'oversize 4/3'

I get the concept of a larger than FF sensor, others are beginning to look that way too

but Im a bit bewildered as to what you meant

 

PS: side by side APS C would do it, and leave a margin for a black register, in this way you could, and I figure by now should, be able to choose 3x2 of 4x3 format

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[nzav]

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Guy, the image circle for a 36 x 30 (or anything larger than the 24mm dimension) frame would have to be larger. When Leica designs lenses to cover the 36 x 24 format (appx. 43.5mm dia.) they add only a comfortable margin due to size, price, and weight increases as the design cost. A 36 x 30 frame already pushes that circle past 47mm. It may not sound like much, but it is significant. I do not have the exact coverage of each Leica lens, but I believe some image quality would be compromised by extending the format size.

[Jamie Roberts]

@ Marc--I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about the R experience. But I'm not wedded to the ergonimics of the DMR solution.

 

I'd like it in the same physical space as the r9, with a little more depth, perhaps, and with a winder.

 

Who knows what Leica could sell something like that for, if they had the right manufacturing partners? Heck, they could talk to CV, for all I care!

 

And then would they compete? I think they could... the M8 is half the price of the DMR/R9 combo; what if a new R was half that price again with new zooms?

 

@ Rex--well, "to each his own" on marginal goodness. Let's just say I sold my 85 1.2L (a wonderful lens, by the way) as soon as I'd shot with the 80 R lux. And the 35 lux is spectacular... not just good. But it wasn't just about the lenses, although I think I've done more of my best personal work with the new 50 R Lux than almost anything else, for whatever that's worth. For a long time, using someone else's 50 was the only way to get a professional 50 on the 1ds2, which was both silly and exasperating from a system perspective.

 

OK, so Canon has plugged that particular hole, evidently. But there are those of us who really do like manual focus better than auto. So I think a new R as an entry system makes perfect sense...as long as they actually get the ergonomics from the R body and not the R + winder / DMR size thing. They'd need to update the lens catalogue, of course, too, or find a way to reprice it somehow...

[wattsy]

So I think we'll see the R10 announced at PMA, looking like an R9 from the front and an M8 from the back.

 

It's a fair point that much of the R&D into the M8 can be carried over to the R10 but I still think the market for the R digital is now so small that any kind of further investment in the R is going to be a very risky proposition. For the sake of keen R users, I hope I'm wrong.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I have always thought this was a very expensive solution, for a tiny market

perhaps it is the same to manufacture ?

 

logically there is some replacement instream, maybe this time it will appeal more to a wider audience, that would be the objective, I guess we are all left to wonder just what

 

Guy, just what did you mean by 'oversize 4/3'

I get the concept of a larger than FF sensor, others are beginning to look that way too

but Im a bit bewildered as to what you meant

 

PS: side by side APS C would do it, and leave a margin for a black register, in this way you could, and I figure by now should, be able to choose 3x2 of 4x3 format

 

 

Rob just thinking whatever the maximum image circle can be than maybe that is what they maybe want to look at. problem i don't know that image circle that it can project, so say they could push the envelope bigger than the FF 24x36. Now of cours ethe mirror and box would have to change and accomadate that

[ddp]

We did that little survey about our ages and it averaged what 49 years old. Man that is a old age bracket for them. they need to recruit the younger crowd to move forward.

 

 

Guy - in my time of Leica ownership - about 7 years, my experience is that it's an older demographic. That's based on owners I have met at my local dealer, and those I have met through various boards.

 

Cost of entry limits younger buyers when it comes to brand new equipment. Luxury brands are sometimes faced with this issue as far as creating "affordable" products and watering down the brand name / image. Tiffany's recently raised prices on certain products because the little blue box was losing it's stature...it had become ubiquitous. Mercedes & Jaguar also faced similar criticism with their entry level vehicles.

 

FWIW - I'm 39 and I usually sell several pieces to buy one new one. I totally ditched the R line and threw that cash into my M stuff. But when I started in the Leica system, it was a used M6 after selling off Hassy stuff. A brand new M6 at the time was out of the question for me. I know that for many younger photogs - a new M8 or R9 with DMR is a huge chunk. They see the 30D or D200 as making more sense off the bat. Regardless of lens quality - it's hard for them to understand why they should spend $5K on a body, and then another couple of grand on basic lenses when they can get a decent DSLR setup with good glass for under $5K.

 

Leica is a high line product....and it tends to draw the younger crowd in with more of the used gear.

[Riley]

I think we havnt seen the last of what can come out of frame sizes

the issue for manufacturers if not designers is you cant pull the parts off the shelf

that can be expensive and means that it has to be made inhouse

an idea more appealing to Leica no doubt,

but it can be tough to afford to be so heavily vertically integrated

and you lose bigtime if it all goes wrong

 

there have been projects that play with the register and frame size

where the image is re-interpolated to make more use of the available image circle

this more especially for HDTV

but conventionally they are stuck with the register that they have

and that determines the image diagonal

[Riley]

Have you used the 4/3 Oly lenses or the Nikon DX lenses ... ? they are not smaller, not lighter than the FF models.

 

Simon

the resulting image is way different, just tell me Im seeing things

a 300mm FF comparative view is from a 150mm lens

so do 300mm FF lenses weigh the same as 150mm now ?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Dan know exactly what you are saying and agree, but they must find a way to get the younger generation to engage in there product lines. How they do that is going to be tricky. I have a 16 year old daughter that loves to shoot pics but how can Leica engage her into the product line as she grows up and hits her prime working age where she can afford the top tier product line. I guess that is my question.

[james_h]

Guy You just know that'll be more than just the car keys that are missing...!

 

regards

Jim

[ken_tanaka]

@Ken, Leica's R glass is *still* the best dSLR glass out there. To call it "not competitive" is just plain silly. It's not cheap, but it's certainly competitive, if you're competing on quality. In fact, I came to Leica digital by shooting Canon's pro stuff--with R glass. I found I could focus just as easily in low light with manual focus lenses as my other L glass lenses could automatically, quite aside from image quality issues.

I made, nor make, any remarks concerning the quality of Leica's lenses or their R-system cameras. I said that they are not -competitive-. That is, in terms of the mix of price, performance, and features Leica's slr system is not competitive in the marketplace with Canon, Nikon, et.al. Dealers are reluctant to carry expensive sluggish inventory regardless of its intrinsic quality.

 

 

And for heaven's sake, it's not at all reminiscent of Kodak pulling out of the pro camera market.

Yes, actually, in terms of business strategy it seems to be nearly identical. Kodak quickly saw that the "pro" market was not nearly as large and profitable as the p&s market. So, needing more 'todays' than 'tomorrows' Kodak quickly retreated to richer pastures. The withdrawal of the DMR suggests that Leica has rediscovered the same landscape. I can only imagine that the M8 is Leica's current cash cow, but one whose birth is demanding far more attention (ie. costs for recalls, etc.) than Leica anticipated. Faced with devoting more capital towards further developing a product line that has probably produced only a handful of sales, and probably been very unprofitable, Leica seems to have wisely decided to devote its finite resources elsewhere. That's certainly disappointing news to R-system, and DMR, owners. But it should be good news to everyone that wishes Leica to survive and thrive.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped} I have a 16 year old daughter that loves to shoot pics but how can Leica engage her into the product line as she grows up and hits her prime working age where she can afford the top tier product line. I guess that is my question.

 

Hey Guy--

 

For high-end consumer stuff, I really quite like the Pana/Leica 4/3 system. It's pretty slick, and compatible with a lot of lens systems, though it has typical Pana sensor response in high ISO.

 

But I really do think a re-made R could be the entry level pro Leica. The parts are there, the design is there, and the manufacturing technology is widely available. They just need to make some great--not exceptional--"entry level" zooms and price it in the high-end dSLR range. That might be hard for Leica to do.

 

The MF would have to bang-on accurate, and better in low-light than AF (cos we know there's still a long way to go on that score!). Accessories should be more reasonably priced as well. Leica has all kinds of optical finder resources they haven't used lately in an SLR design

 

As people then move up into the R line primes, or faster, better zooms, you get them into a different kind of photogrpahy, too.

 

I don't think you're watering down the brand to have an entry level, high quality, unique (MF & lens capability) product. BMW has a couple of "entry-level" products, and even Audi has one, too. Are they more expensive than some alternatives? Yes... but they're not in the luxury price range either.

 

Anyway, if they could do something with R sensor tech., too, then they'd have an interesting and attractive combo. And as I said, I don't care who makes it, as long as it's good.

 

Then Leica itself can concentrate more on the M series, and where they go "up" in the range...

 

But what do I know? This is armchair R&D and marketing!! LOL!! I should be working on albums Back to PS!

[ddp]

Remember....the M2 was released as a cheaper alternative to the M3 back in the day. So it would be nice to see the Leica equivalent of a 30D or D200 to suck young users into the line.

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[Riley]

entry level is fine IF you have somewhere to go beyond that

for the prices they command and the rate of manufacture

the place to begin is the top

the competition may be well entrenched, but there are what 3 cameras there ?

 

for the M things were different, the short register and lenses with a history almost as old as Guy had to be accommodated. For a pro level dSLR FF will suffice nicely with the new CCD lenticular sensor technology and the longer R register.

[macusque]

As for the square or 4:3 format bigger than full frame, it really isn't feasible with the current Leica-R system.

 

The image circle of the R-lenses (as most 35mm lenses besides PC lenses) is designed to have a 43mm diameter (diagonal of full format 24x36). Hence the maximum square format you could fit into this image circle is about 30.5 x 30.5.

 

Anyway anything similar or bigger than the current DMR sensor that would accepts R-lenses will be fine for me.

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