DMR discontinued?

[rvaubel]

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Rex, do you think they should kill off the R?

 

Frankly, yes. It just requires to much of their resources to persue a dual strategy. Leica was never really comfortable in the SLR marketplace anyway. Lets face it, it's really about the glass. But in addition, with the burgening size of the current retrofocus, autofocus DSLR kits, Leica has a real opportunity to exploit the very real size advantage of the rangefinder form factor. The fact that a complete M8 kit takes up 1/3 the space of a comprable DSLR kit is a real plus. It is this unique advantage that I think Leica needs to press in the marketplace. The Canon and Nikon stuff is just too good for a lightly capitalized company like Leica to compete in. Let Leica play from their traditional strengths, not fool around in an overly competitive area in which they never really had any unique advantage.

 

Rex

[sdai]

Of course I have no inside information but I suspect that there may be no "R10". I don't think that Leica has the technical or financial resources to develop a competitive digital slr at this time. It may make more sense for them to milk the M line, particularly the M8, and their lens sales (which will certainly have up-ticked a bit with the M8) for a while. Perhaps re-evaluate the situation in a year or two.

 

You may be right, Ken ... even if Leica could complete the design of a R10, I doubt their facility has enough capacity to put this camera into (even a relatively smaller) volume production together with the M8 ... I wish I were wrong but it appears to me that many of the M8 issues folks were reporting here may be results of problems in the assembly and QC process ... due to their relatively lack of experience in electronics assembly. They probably should enhance their OEM partnership with Matsushita or whoever ... just for now, and put the expansion of their lineup of digicams and 4/3 DSLRs to the highest priority - besides the M lineup of course.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snippped} Let Leica play from their traditional strengths, not fool around in an overly competitive area in which they never really had any unique advantage.

 

Rex

 

Aside from better manual focusing, better quality glass and better quality images, you're right, Leica had no advantage with the DMR at all...

[rvaubel]

Aside from better manual focusing, better quality glass and better quality images, you're right, Leica had no advantage with the DMR at all...

 

I'm not disputing that. But the operative phrase should be "marginally better". Within the DSLR field the DMR was only a bit better than the best full frame Canon + L glass combination. Actually with the 85mmF1.2 or 35mmF1.4 I'm not sure if that the DMR equivelent was better. Wides you are absolutely right.

 

Anyway, what I was saying is that with the M8, Leica has the field to itself. I think they should concentrate their resources there. In the future I would like to see a full frame, non-modular DSLR from Leica. I just don't want them to spread themselves too thin.

 

Rex

[andybarton]

Given that there are several R lenses that seem to have dropped out of the catalogue recently, I suspect that the whole R line's days are numbered.

[carstenw]

Isn't everyone forgetting about the end of the announcement: "Leica continues to develop the digital solution for the R system. Leica assures all DMR customers of its full customer service and are optimistic about the digital developments in the R System in the near future."

 

Key words here: develop, near future. I don't think they are planning to kill anything off, except the DMR. If you look at the R lens lineup, there are some truly great lenses there, but also a few also-rans which really need updating. I think Leica is planning an overhaul of the line. There is no bad lens in the M line. In fact, Chasseur D'Images in France just reviewed all the lenses except the Noctilux, and every single one of them got 5/5 stars, and a rave review. The R line needs some attention to reach that level although many of the lenses are already there.

 

About competitiveness, Leica is a small company and doesn't need to compete successfully against the 1Ds2 or any other Japanese SLR. They just need to find a market large enough to sell their product, which they apparently have with the DMR, it now being sold out. At Leica they make runs of a product, and then sell until they are gone. It didn't take long for the DMR to sell out. There is definitely enough demand, probably mostly from pros, to sustain another run like this.

 

From a previous comment from Leica (something about full-frame or larger), I am guessing that they will release a 4:3 aspect ratio FF camera. With the existing pixel density, that would work out to around a 35x26mm sensor, which still fits within the same image circle. With current pixel densities, it would have 5133x3813 pixels, ie. as much as 19MP. At that pixel count I suppose it depends what Kodak can do with chip yields. They might keep it a bit lower than that to keep yields up and throw away iffy corners, but my bet is something close to this.

 

The interesting thing about digital is that the shape of the sensor is largely irrelevant. 4:3 is loved by people producing work for print and advertising (think 645 or the digital backs). Some other shape is also possible, but this is the likely one I think, and would explain all the hints Leica has been giving us over time (FF or *larger*, new R solution soon).

[bono0272]

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Actually anyone knows how many DMR have been manufactured by Leica so far?

[reven]

I really would like to see something new from leica soon. I have to admit that if they really present something new on the PMA or around it it is the biggest suprise for the year. ( Ok can only get bigger if Canon doesn't show of a newn 1series)

I never thought Leica could do that. It really will be intresting.

[pascal_meheut]

I really would like to see something new from leica soon. I have to admit that if they really present something new on the PMA or around it it is the biggest suprise for the year. ( Ok can only get bigger if Canon doesn't show of a newn 1series)

 

Not to mention the FF 20 Mpix Nikon D3X on top of the new Eos1D camera merging the Eos1Ds and Eos1D line

[wattsy]

The interesting thing about digital is that the shape of the sensor is largely irrelevant. 4:3 is loved by people producing work for print and advertising (think 645 or the digital backs). Some other shape is also possible, but this is the likely one I think, and would explain all the hints Leica has been giving us over time (FF or *larger*, new R solution soon).

 

I'm not sure why these rumours of a new format keep surfacing? All of the R lenses are designed around the curent 35mm format - including the internal baffling, lens hoods, etc. Unless Leica break with their long tradition of backward compatibility and introduce a new line of digital R lenses, the future R10 will have to be designed to work with the existing line of lenses. That means 35mm or smaller same-shape format. I don't think you can just draw the theoretical image circle of a 35mm lens and find the most pleasing sensor format to fit into it.

[wattsy]

I agree with those who doubt that Leica have the resources to properly compete in the DSLR market. Developing 'just' the analogue R8 in the 1990s weakened Leica AG considerably (long before digital cast its shadow over the company coffers) and who knows how much money and manpower has been ploughed into the M8? Personally, I think that Leica need to find another manufacturer to rebadge a decent existing DSLR (which can be fitted an R mount and manual focussing screen) and sell this as the R10 - not unlike the arrangement that the company once had with Minolta. Doing so will upset a lot of R users but would mean that the R line has a future. The problem for Leica would be finding just such a manufacturer - Panasonic are not experienced in this particular field, the future of Pentax is in doubt, Sony/Minolta have existing marketing links with Zeiss, and Sigma are too wedded to the fovean experiment.

[pascal_meheut]

I think that Leica need to find another manufacturer to rebadge a decent existing DSLR

 

No way. No camera on the market comes close to the R9+DMR ergonomy.

[rosuna]

The development of a "full digital" R10 is not so difficult. The DMR and the M8 designs contain all waht is needed.

I also think the R9 is the most beatiful and ergonomic SLR camera.

[hamey]

I don't know how true this is, BUT.

 

Forget longevity in this Digital world, perhaps this wonderful DMR has outlived it's performance in this electronic circus.

Two years and most or anything Digital is obsolete.

 

As for the M8 what future holds for it.

 

I just bought some more film, 5 Kodak 100G (3)and GX (2) as well as 5 Velvia 100F.

To feed my R7,8,9 and the M7.

I am not into Electronic imaging but this news does sadden me as I liked the DMR concept.

 

Such is life.

 

Ken.

[Guest stnami]

Yea but you have a endless supply of developer in the Murray though it is a concentrated solution now

[mwilliamsphotography]

Good Lord, there seems to be such a fixation on homogeneousness when it comes to photography gear.

 

The R system offers an alternative experience , and one that is fast disappearing as each tool begins to meld into the next. Contax is gone. The are a few manual Nikons, but they are probably walking into the sunset. Canon makes nothing like a R.

 

IMO come out with a R-10 that's full frame and offers in-camera focus confirmation like the Contax RX, and that's enough adoption of whiz-bang do-dads.

 

Or get out of the DSLR body business to concentrate resources on the M line. License the Canon electronic mount at any cost, and sell EOS-R lenses to the discriminating few based on special order. Continue refining the R9 film camera since that R&D is already invested, and sell that as "special order" also.

[rosuna]

IMO come out with a R-10 that's full frame and offers in-camera focus confirmation like the Contax RX, and that's enough adoption of whiz-bang do-dads.

 

I agree on that.

[wattsy]

No way. No camera on the market comes close to the R9+DMR ergonomy.

 

I'm not pretending that rebadging another DSLR would be as good as some new digital permutation of the R9 but I don't think that there is a sufficient market for Leica to make the necessary investment to take the digital R forward themselves. Ask any dealer how much R stuff they have sold over the years - my London dealer reckons he has sold more than ten times as much M gear than R gear during the last five years. The R market is tiny. Too small I suggest for Leica to spend the necessary €millions to develop an R10 which they can sell at 'normal' 35mm format digital prices (i.e. around €5k).

[marknorton]

I expect Leica will have developed the M8 with a replacement for the R9/DMR in mind knowing that the Imacon relationship was deteriorating.

 

A development shared across both platforms - sensor, shutter, electronics, firmware with elements carried over from (respectively) the M7 and R9 and you have the M8 and R10.

 

The resulting economies of scale allow the R10 to exist at all (given the R lower sales volumes) but also serve to spread the development costs across more cameras, helping the M as well. Leica is able to untangle itself from the Imacon relationship and offer an R digital body for M8 money.

 

So I think we'll see the R10 announced at PMA, looking like an R9 from the front and an M8 from the back.

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

The word is and has been there working on it , so i for one look forward to see what they may come up with. I like the R system myself , yes there does need some lens updates and focus confirmation needs to be part of the new system but the ROM is there to do that also. I just have a feeling it will be bigger than 24x36 that standard is really meaningless in the digital world. I still like the idea of a oversized 4/3 system and think it is a good place in the market for Leica to be is stuck between a FF Canon and MF and give us around the 20 MPX mark. i think one thing we should look at and I have yet to do it is look what CCD from Kodak is being made today that they can adapt into it. For Leica it would be more cost effective if they used a sensor that was already being done than starting from scratch and faster to market also. I am a bit surprised by the timing though of discontinuing the DMR so premature to a realizing a replacement so quickly . I can't imagine a two year wait now and has to be much sooner or current R shooters will walk away. This will be a interesting time for the R system.