PDN Review of the M8

[mwilliamsphotography]

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Look folks, this is a classic marketing case of pent up expectations not being met to the extent of those expectations ... resulting in a polarizing set of opinions.

 

This camera has been long in coming. Many of us were concerned that it may never have got here. Our expectations of a digital M, if it did come, was formed by either long time use of M cameras and optics, or by use of other reasonably well developed digital camera systems.

 

First was Leica's assertion that a digital rangefinder wasn't possible with current available technology due to the closeness of the rear element to the sensor (especially with W/A lenses). Then came the Epson RD-1, and while employing a 1.5X crop 6 meg sensor, it worked reasonably well. On top of that, there was Leica's financial problems which threatened the considerable R&D needed to move into the digital era ... less of a problem for electronic Epson of Japan Inc. than for mechanical Leica of Germany.

 

An attempt to form alliances with some European electronic entities like Imacon resulted in the DMR ... apparently a one time collaboration most likely dissolved by the Hasselblad/Imacon merger. Whatever the reason, new relationships had to be forged. What a freaking corporate chaos all that had to have fermented.

 

Then there was the "technological breakthrough" of a sensor with micro prisms to help with the closeness issue. This is also a solution employed by Medium Format digital back makers like Phase One ( to address similar issues when employing severe tilts and shifts on a view camera ? ... or some other issue unknown to me ). It also has introduced a whole new set of unexpected problems discovered by users ... which didn't stop the MF back makers from moving forward anyway.

 

So the M8 hits the market finally, some pent up expectations are met, others aren't. And there are issues no one in either camp expected.

 

Outrage. Relief it's here at all. Concerns. Delight in new features like higher shutter speeds. Disbelief that the IR issue wasn't flagged. Mixed feelings about the only apparent solution of IR filters on precious M glass. Irritation about initial banding and having to recall all the M8s already sold. Free IR filters and a 30% discount off horribly costly lenses. And so on.

 

I think we have beaten-up each other more than enough now don't you?

 

Take it or leave it. Some people are getting the images they want from the camera, and others don't want the headaches required to do that.

 

Repeatedly kicking each other in the virtual groin, it isn't going to change a thing.

[plasticman]

Marc - not only are your images consistently the ones that convince me that one day i MUST make the jump to own an M8, your considered and thoughtful posts are always exactly on the spot. Thanks!

 

I generally no longer contribute to the discussion, as i don't own the camera - my number 2 place in Sweden's queue hasn't led to the dreaded/longed-for phone call yet - but when that call comes i'm gonna appreciate the balanced contributions from forum members like you, and the images that you've shown are possible with the camera in the right hands.

To be frank, not all the M8 owners - shrill or otherwise - have either the wit, patience, insight, nor natural talent that their contributions to the forum in general might have one believe.

 

I for one enjoy the free (but polite) give and take of opinion on both sides of the M8 divide.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I don't disagree and maybe a little heavy handed comments but i don't need to read any reviews if anything i have tested every known issue there is and brought those issues to this forum with help and advice on trying to fix them. I have been more than balanced on the issues and will continue to do that but reading a review that the person may not even have the amount of experience that I have with the camera and in the industry is not worth my time. I have run many tests on this camera and posted them here since the first day it arrived with the warts and all. I already have shot more jobs than almost anyone with this camera already and know exactly what to expect from it.I'm looking at 15 hour days for the next 3 days. The DMR is home and the M8 is the go to camera period. If i'm putting my reputation on the line than i think I am smart enough to know what i am doing. I don't need anyone telling me to wait to the next version.

[Stevez4]

Those of us with one or two $5,000 non working cameras being held hostage

by Leica for a month or so might disagree with the fawning.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

One crashed and burned been there done that. So what is the point, I experienced every known issue there is including a 2 month Germany experience. BTW i had a Canon crash and burned too.

 

Your talking to the wrong guy here and this has become extremely boring. Going to go shoot ,have a wonderful day.

[larry]

Imperfect beings don't make "perfect" things. The first camera company that can legitimately state that it doesn't need a repair department will dominate the market -- but that's unlikely to happen. I've owned cameras made by virtually every manufacturer and have, to a greater or lesser extent, experienced some flaw or defect in every one. The M8's problems, although real, have been magnified out of proportion in this and other forums. Even after Leica irons out the problems, there will still be criticisms over one thing or another, just as with every other expensive camera. Some of the criticisms are valid and will help to design the next iteration, while some can be written off as nothing more bandwidth-robbing bellyaching.

 

Larry

[plasticman]

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Guy - why don't you give the guys who are a little dissatisfied with Leica some space?

I'm actually tired of your breathless ranting tone. I think they have every right to express some dissatisfaction.

You seem to assume that the "been-there-done-that" statement is all that's needed to settle the issue.

FWIW i've been the (reluctant) user of a whole brace of Canon cameras now - hated every one of them - but as far as reliability is concerned, they've all been 100%

 

If you actually want to know "what is the point" (which you've said like a million times now, i think) then take a look at this month's LFI, where an article discusses how internet forums have motivated large companies to improve their products in a way that they didn't need to before, when purchasers were unable to coordinate their feedback in the way they can now.

 

Think of it like this: without what you've consistently called the "whingers", the camera in your hands would not be half as good as it is now.

 

ok - MY rant is over now.

[peterv]

Marc,

you said it all. End of discussion for me. (could have ended long ago, if it were up to me)

 

Guy,

I can understand the way you react to things being written in these kind of threads. Especially if you feel you are referred to personally. Nevertheless IMO your time and talent are much too valuable to put more energy into this. I suspect there will be nore threads like this one in the coming months...

 

Forum users can always use the search option if they need to read things having been discussed months ago, no need to repeat ourselves..

 

Thanks for all the positive input.

 

Peter

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Last comment from me on this subject. Leica owned up to the streaking issue and recalled let's say 1500 camera's becuase they saw the issue that was reported an acted on it in good faith no matter how much damage it caused them. Let me leave you this thought , I owned Canon for 5 years and all there DSLR' and i know that company pretty darn well and first let me state i do like Canon. Now how many of you think Canon would have stood up and said they had a a issue please return the camera's, if just even one person said they would you would be dead wrong. Canon would NEVER own up to it ever. What they would have done is nothing except if someone sent it in for a repair would be fix it but there would be no public announcement of the issue and in the factory they would have simply fixed it after it was discovered and continued to ship without anyone ever knowing what happened. Now there is something to chew on. Some folks need to learn about marketing and public relations and how it really works in big corporate business. But what Leica did was take it in the shorts and not many would have. Not saying they made a mistake but they owned up to it, go count the number of big companies that would do that. Not many i assure you

[wattsy]

Your talking to the wrong guy here and this has become extremely boring.

 

No offence Guy, but maybe the poster wasn't 'talking' to you? In my opinion, your hectoring tone does this forum a disservice. Everyone is entitled to evaluate the M8 on their own terms and reach whatever conclusion they wish. Some of us have been using the M system for years (and the M8 for as long as it has been available) and don't feel the need to bleat on about it at every opportunity. Like you, I have used the M8 for paying jobs, but that doesn't mean I cannot respect someone's opinion if they don't feel the camera is quite ready yet for their own needs.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy - why don't you give the guys who are a little dissatisfied with Leica some space?

I'm actually tired of your breathless ranting tone. I think they have every right to express some dissatisfaction.

You seem to assume that the "been-there-done-that" statement is all that's needed to settle the issue.

FWIW i've been the (reluctant) user of a whole brace of Canon cameras now - hated every one of them - but as far as reliability is concerned, they've all been 100%

 

If you actually want to know "what is the point" (which you've said like a million times now, i think) then take a look at this month's LFI, where an article discusses how internet forums have motivated large companies to improve their products in a way that they didn't need to before, when purchasers were unable to coordinate their feedback in the way they can now.

 

Think of it like this: without what you've consistently called the "whingers", the camera in your hands would not be half as good as it is now.

 

ok - MY rant is over now.

 

 

I have been all over Canons butt for many years and i have done the same with leica , don't think for a second that i have not. I have the same issues as everyone else, I crashed and burned in a middle of a paying shoot do you honestly think I was happy, far from it and leica knows it too. But they respond to it, Canon never has and never will, there is a difference. Okay enough for me and off too work i go but as much as i may prasie them if you want to call it that is as much as i tell them this is wrong and this needs attention, and they listen and work on it. We all here are responsible for the new firmware coming 1.10 were do you honestly think they got all there info from to fix the issues or show the issue. It was US on this very forum

[Guest guy_mancuso]

No offence Guy, but maybe the poster wasn't 'talking' to you? In my opinion, your hectoring tone does this forum a disservice. Everyone is entitled to evaluate the M8 on their own terms and reach whatever conclusion they wish. Some of us have been using the M system for years (and the M8 for as long as it has been available) and don't feel the need to bleat on about it at every opportunity. Like you, I have used the M8 for paying jobs, but that doesn't mean I cannot respect someone's opinion if they don't feel the camera is quite ready yet for their own needs.

 

Ian point taken but I want to hear the displeasure from the owners not a reviewer or someone that does not own it or use it and that is the part that get's up my crawl space. If you don't own and and think it is not ready that is fine but no need to harp on it every second. Do i go on a Canon forum and say anything about what i don't like about there latest gem, never. Not my business

 

I agree sometimes i get strong on these issue and it sounds like I am screaming by my words, i assure you I am not. It is just the way i write and also the reverse is true.

[plasticman]

We all here are responsible for the new firmware coming 1.10 were do you honestly think they got all there info from to fix the issues or show the issue. It was US on this very forum

 

Okay Guy - i'd say you're ocassionally in a little too much of a rush to answer, so that maybe you don't actually read the posts that are written here, whether addressed to you or not.

 

As a wrap to my comments, i'd say that my admiration for Leica as a company is by no means diminished by how they handled the M8's issues. I still want to buy one, when the circumstances are right. As far as i'm concerned, that time is not quite right now.

 

The free and fair exchange of opinion on this forum has helped me to come to that conclusion very regretfully.

Good luck to everyone who's M8 is functioning faultlessly!

[carstenw]

I am about to find out how good Canon's service is and what their warranty is worth. I have sold my 5D to a friend, and he has dicsovered than there is a tiny line at the edge of the sensor, coming down from the top of the image, about 30 pixels long, 1 wide, that may be a hair, may be a scratch. We have tried blowing it off, and I have tried my Visible Dust brush on it, but it remains. We are worried that it will be a scratch. The thing is that I have never cleaned the sensor, ever, just blown the dust off it, so if that really is a scratch, it must have been there from the very beginning. I am tensely awaiting Canon's verdict on it. This could cost me a lot of money.

 

Leica has been awesome. Although I am not happy that the problems are there, Leica has owned up to them and done their best to compensate me. They are taking cameras back and doing service work on them as a matter of course, without giving me a hard time about it. I have not been asked for my bill or warranty card yet. Canon asked me, in spite of the fact that there is a two year combined warranty/guarantee period, and the 5D hasn't been around that long.

[Guest magyarman]

If you don't own and and think it is not ready that is fine but no need to harp on it every second.

 

Leica will in one monath finish to sale M8 to all who think is OK how stands it. My store tell this too little sale for Leica take back money what was cost it so they can very possible to go broked. So if I thing better Leica listen what says people who was before wanted M8 and does not want to buy becaus prablems. I thing if people is happy theyre M8 is them should to go make fotos and quiet so voice of futur costumer got hear by Leica.

[plasticman]

Sorry Carsten, but with the greatest respect, why does any appraisal of the M8 have to be answered by a criticism of Canon?

 

I've read an enormous amount on this forum now along the lines of 'no software/hardware/electronics' is ever perfect etc. But to be honest, as a 17-year user of Apple products, and a user of a fair variety of camera and other electronic equipment along the way, reading user opinions and buying carefully has allowed me to avoid EVER having to return a product to it's manufacturer (knock on wood). ;-)

 

Still, if it makes you feel better, i've no doubt whatsoever that Leica's customer care is definitely > Canon's. But i just fail to understand what that has to do with our discussion here, really.

 

(PS anyone know what magyarman is doing on the forum? - now there's a guy who never intends to buy an M8).