PDN Review of the M8

[Jamie Roberts]

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@ Marc--Amen!! I have the M8 along with a 5d and DMR--and they're each one good for a different purpose.

 

The DMR is still tops for framing and lensing at regular ISOs in good light (where I can focus). Portable portrait and long work can't be beat, and I love the easy mirror lock up (which gives it a bit of a hand-held and monopod advantage). And the 5d isn't the speed freak the 1ds2 (or 1d2) is, but it's perfectly respectable and--even better than mirror lock up--sometimes a longer IS zoom lens shot around ISO 1600 is exactly the right lens at a wedding ceremony.

 

The M8 though is gaining on both of them, and as I wrote to someone else the other day, it just doesn't kill my back as much:) As I get older, that's a real consideration, too. And it's stealthy... the difference between pointing a 75 lux at someone or a 70-200 IS zoom at someone is, well, a completely different world.

 

And, just like Guy, if I could afford MF... well, maybe someday soon they'll make an updated Rollei / P20 kit with just a little faster write time and better compression to the CF card

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[sean_reid]

...the colt among the horses:)

 

Nice phrase; it's a good choice of image.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[carstenw]

Well spoken Marc. Btw, your 24mm Elmarit shade is on upside down

[mwilliamsphotography]

Marc,

 

What happened to the CFV then ?

 

Still the dark horse in the cupboard ?

 

Is it a relatively reliable piece of kit ?

 

Rolo

 

 

Oh it's still there. Like a Super Hero, it arrived just in time to save the entire V system (500 and 200 series stuff), that I had collected over 20 years. I use it as commercial back-up, weddings and personal photography.

 

I'm a pack Rat, I refuse to sell off superb gear at 5 cents on the dollar because of a momentary technical lag ... I'd rather set it aside and wait ... good things come to those who wait ... like the CFV for the Zeiss glass, and the M8 for the Leica glass : -)

 

The CFV is a very reliable digital back BTW. Works flawlessly on all the cameras including the SWC.

 

Shade fixed Carsten, LOL ... moral of that story? Don't shoot anything until that first cup of coffee : -)

[hankg]

I'm not surprised by the PDN review. From a totally practical point of view, why use Leica when Canon is tried and tested and leading the 35mm digital pack in development and product?

 

So why do I have an M8 on it's way to me right now? I've been using Canon 1 series since I went digital and it's done the job. Some of the L lenses are great and can produce on a par with Zeiss and Leica. But I never warmed to the Canon, it is like my fax, copy machine or computer just another tool that I use to do what I need to do. I don't particularly like any of them, they just don't produce the kind of reaction an old Rollei TLR or Leica M does (in me at least) and I really, really hate lugging around and using the big body and mega-sized lenses outside the studio.

 

I figure if there is an M9 coming it's at least 2 years off and I'm 100% digital so film M is not an option (anyway for film color it was medium format for me). The M8's got me excited about a camera for the first time in years. I'll take the risk of Leica's digital teething pains to be able to work the way I want to now. I just dug out my little Prat camera bag, Leica RF, M sized body, those tiny-weeny beautiful RF lenses, M RF focusing and digital -man I'm in heaven. Is the M8 perfect? Not even close. Is it good enough to warrant purchase now? For me, yes. Having to use a DSLR to use digital was a much bigger negative for me then having to use filters on my lenses.

[mwilliamsphotography]

The idea of a M8 and MF digital camera is exactly where I'm headed. Less DSLR.

 

Oh, BTW, when investigating MF digital backs and camera systems, research the support system first ... it's the most important piece of kit.

 

Most of the backs are going to compressed optional formats Jamie. For example, the write speed and buffer has been significantly increased for the Aptus 75s upgrade I'm getting in March. And each iteration of the Hasselblad software/firmware gets faster and better. ISO performance has gotten a lot better on both cameras in recent months.

 

Guy, that lens is a HC 35/3.5, which is indeed pretty big. The other lenses are half that size (except the 300/4.5 : -) But the image shows why a M8 is so "shoulder and back" friendly compared to the Canon also.

 

BTW, I use Zeiss glass on the H3D/39 via an CF adapter ... but the HC glass is better than I thought it'd be, and the HC100/2 has become one of my favorite lenses. Here's a HC100/2 shot from the H2D/22 before I upgraded to the H3D/39.

[woodyspedden]

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??? Woody, not to trying to match your agression, but you may need to take a look there yourself. Whose words are those other than yours? And actually I thought your explanation quite reasonable and rational.

 

 

 

Woody, forgive me but it is you, not me who is acting to demean what others say. Which surprises me since I didn't realize that was your style. As to the bullying tactic of calling someone who asks a question that you don't like a "troll," troubling. Very troubling. Here is what I had to say a couple of days ago when Imnants asked us for genuine opinions about the M8 and its value to his work. Although I did criticize the handling of the IR issue, I also responded to his question of whether he should switch over to an M8:

 

 

 

Woody, I will continue to present hopefully balanced opinion and questions designed to be helpful and thought provoking -- including praise of the camera or criticism of it or of overly defensive threads. I will also continue to refrain from the kind of behavior you've exhibited here. The "tactics" you've shown are the very antithesis of what being a photographer is about. I thought as photographers we were supposed to try and be the ones who first see something, are most open to new viewpoints, the most willing to question, the most curious?

 

The scrum is solely of your design and making. It's me who won't bite, but neither will I be intimidated by you. My questions still stand. With an interesting and thoughtful answer from Jeff that makes sense and maybe gives an outside reader a good sense of one set of answers to some pretty simple questions.

 

Steven

Steven

 

I guess the words you used brought out the worst in me. I apologize for "going off" on you because I associate you with rational and objective remarks on this and other forums.

 

I own and love the M8 and as stated never considered it as a one and only camera to use. I guess when I read reviews that spend so much time covering the negatives and so little on what is right that I get really p.....ed because it hurts Leica sales and we all need and want Leica to succeed.

 

I will stand by my comment that if you are looking for a small, lightweight, unobtrusive body, coupled to state of the art optics the M8 is not just the best but the only choice. I also think that when reading all the comments by users (not abusers) of the M8 those negatives that the reviewers keep harping about have workarounds which are not too difficult and render the M8 useful for most all shooting situations.By example I thought the mirror lockup approach taken by Canon in the 1DsMkII was stupid and interfered with my shooting style. But it didn't stop me from buying the camera for its many positive attributes and I read no reviews where it was harped upon to the point of saying it was a deal killer.

 

Perhaps it all comes down to expectations from anything Leica. It is just supposed to be perfects or it gets the feet of clay hallmark.

 

Anyway, please forgive my rant at you. The insanity was only temporary

 

Woody

[Artichoke]

I have had my M8 for only a few weeks now & I understand fully the love most folks who use this unique camera have for it

much has been made about its issues but from my use these issues are mere quibbles

the overall quality of the files I have been getting from mine have been nothing short of outstanding ...the sensor was designed specifically for RF and the decision to not use an IR filter I think basically sound ...I am waiting on my filters from Leica but from what I have experienced putting this camera through its paces, I don't know that I will be using them as much as I would have expected

I have found the M8 an exemplary photographic tool which adds passion to my photography

[Englander]

Why do so many think the solution to the IR problem will be in a new camera? Leica's main business is selling lenses. They sold cameras several times in the past at a per unit loss in order to sell lenses. Wouldn't surpise me if the IR solution is in new lenses that are corrected for it. Oh, you can use your old lenses and off-brand lenses, but if you want the M8 to work properly, you'll need these new lenses with IR coating that do not vignette cyan. And the new lenses will work on old Ms as long as you don't want to do IR. Old M lenses will continue to work on the M8, but just not be as good as the new lenses that everyone will want to buy in order to obtain perfection. Solves a lot of business problems and brings back the closed-system profit they lost when the M-mount went public.

 

Joe

[Jamie Roberts]

Marc--that's a simply gorgeous shot, and thanks for the MF information. Less dSLR is a good thing I can always use the R9 to shoot TriX or something!

[barjohn]

Marc,

 

What was the lighting used for that shot? It is fantastic with beautiful skin tones and the 3D look.

[gdewitt]

I always get a kick out of discussions on Internet discussion boards about reviews of products owned by the members of the board. Typically they follow one of two patterns:

 

1. Good reviews. Members congratulate themselves over how smart they are for agreeing with the reviewer and/or how smart he reviewer is for agreeing with the members.

 

2. Bad reviews. Members talk about how stupid the reviewer is to not be capable of seeing what the members do in a product.

 

I've seen this a lot in car forums as well as camera forums.

 

Now I'm seeing a new pattern, unique to the M8. People seem to say "look at this bad review. All of you who own this product are stupid." I'm not saying the OP of this thread was that way, just that I'm seeing a pattern I've not seen before.

 

Frankly, I own an M8. Why on Earth would I read reviews of same?

[lct]

...Old M lenses will continue to work on the M8, but just not be as good as the new lenses that everyone will want to buy in order to obtain perfection. Solves a lot of business problems and brings back the closed-system profit they lost when the M-mount went public....

Thank you for us old Leica customers.

Is it for this that we have spent little fortunes on less-than-perfect-non-coded-non-red-nosed Leica lenses?

Perhaps we should stop loosing all that money after all.

Funny that Zeiss is becoming less 'closed-system' than Leica in those modern ages.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

The idea of a M8 and MF digital camera is exactly where I'm headed. Less DSLR.

 

Oh, BTW, when investigating MF digital backs and camera systems, research the support system first ... it's the most important piece of kit.

 

Most of the backs are going to compressed optional formats Jamie. For example, the write speed and buffer has been significantly increased for the Aptus 75s upgrade I'm getting in March. And each iteration of the Hasselblad software/firmware gets faster and better. ISO performance has gotten a lot better on both cameras in recent months.

 

Guy, that lens is a HC 35/3.5, which is indeed pretty big. The other lenses are half that size (except the 300/4.5 : -) But the image shows why a M8 is so "shoulder and back" friendly compared to the Canon also.

 

BTW, I use Zeiss glass on the H3D/39 via an CF adapter ... but the HC glass is better than I thought it'd be, and the HC100/2 has become one of my favorite lenses. Here's a HC100/2 shot from the H2D/22 before I upgraded to the H3D/39.

 

 

Marc i spent about a hour at Keeble in Palo Alto and Jack and I were really looking and shooting it in the store. It felt nice , maybe a little too electronic but still a nice machine. i am going to PMA and visit the Leica folks and walk around and see what is out there and coming out that makes sense for me. I think i would even be happy with a 22mpx back as long as the support is there and i agree 1000 percent on that end. This has been the main reason i have not jumped in. One thing to beta test a 10k system like a M8 but a 60 k system are two different worlds.

[chrism]

The M8 sure looks tiny in that photo sort of the colt among the horses:)

 

Comme ca?

 

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Chris

[mwilliamsphotography]

Marc,

 

What was the lighting used for that shot? It is fantastic with beautiful skin tones and the 3D look.

 

Hi John. I couldn't recall if I used fill from a diffused Metz or not, so I checked the file data ... no flash. So, available light apparently.

[woodyspedden]

Woody, not a problem. I have the same association with you as being a thoughtful contributor -- as evidenced by your thoughts in this thread with that one little scrum as an exception. My words were only meant to question the why of some of the defensiveness/aggressiveness that the thread seemed to be veering towards (and again not your thoughts), and to the extent they drew a different sense, my apology to you -- although better a scrum between friends than strangers. And even the best of us go off on a tear on occasion.

 

And the thread as it has progressed -- Mark's and your thoughts as examples -- gives a good sense to a reader of what the M8 can deliver, as well as what it cannot deliver -- both in terms of the attributes/limitations of the medium and the camera. That seems a much more positive and productive conversation than attacking as yet unread PDN words -- and, for some, apparently words that were unashamedly going to stay unread (and not said with any humor) to better defend the M8 against all heretics. A much less inviting and interesting conversation, I hope you would agree.

 

Best, Steven

 

Thanks for the understanding Steven. I appreciate the forgiveness and hope that we now go back to trying to help others who are looking for those that have experience with the M8 and others to make some informed choices.

 

Long live passion but always try to make sense

 

 

Woody

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Woody, not a problem. I have the same association with you as being a thoughtful contributor -- as evidenced by your thoughts in this thread with that one little scrum as an exception. My words were only meant to question the why of some of the defensiveness/aggressiveness that the thread seemed to be veering towards (and again not your thoughts), and to the extent they drew a different sense, my apology to you -- although better a scrum between friends than strangers. And even the best of us go off on a tear on occasion.

 

And the thread as it has progressed -- Mark's and your thoughts as examples -- gives a good sense to a reader of what the M8 can deliver, as well as what it cannot deliver -- both in terms of the attributes/limitations of the medium and the camera. That seems a much more positive and productive conversation than attacking as yet unread PDN words -- and, for some, apparently words that were unashamedly going to stay unread (and not said with any humor) to better defend the M8 against all heretics. A much less inviting and interesting conversation, I hope you would agree.

 

Best, Steven

 

Steven your obviously talking about me. But let's set the facts straight right here and now and get it out on the table. I am a Pro that has at least heart to go put my freaking neck on the line with it and no magazine reviewer is going to take my experience and what i can draw from those images. You on the other hand order than cancel becuase it is not reliable , guess what your no better than the guy sitting in the armchair directing traffic , so really let's cut the BS. When you out there with your career in the balance with it than let's talk because your balanced conversation is really one sided , I'm at least using it and put my money were my big mouth is. So cut the fanboy crap i am tried of hearing it.

 

If you want to discuss this off line you know my e-mail but do NOT insult me among my peers. I don't deserve it

[LJL]

Hey, Guy, I kind of thought you would come back on this. When I first responeded to the fray from Ken's initial post, I opened my comments by saying that I had not read the article and probably would not bother. I started to think the Steven was also taking a swipe at me in his words that you quoted, but water off a duck's back with me.....

 

My thoughts looking over this somewhat ugly thread are that folks that have the camera, use it and derive some of their income from its use (as you and I both do, as to many other s here), surely do not need to be reading reviews from testers at this point. I am not looking for "validation of my expenditure" as someone else said, nor am I looking to those reviewers, some of whom may be extremely competent and fairhanded, to tell me things I already know about this camera from my own use, and from the deep and openly shared knowledge of some folks on this forum. I would turn here for perspectives, problem solving and advice well before a three month late review that proposes I wait until the "next version" is out.

 

At this point, I am more interested in learning new things, not rehashing knowns. I realize that some of these reviews serve a good purpose for those that have not made their decision on the M8 or are still thinking about it (even after ordering and cancelling....yep, there are several out there also), but on balance, this forum has been a far better source of the good, bad, and ugly about all of it. In my book, there is so much more good that keeps getting overlooked for complainers to hammer on the other things. Anybody that has really used the M8 knows what it can and cannot do already, and are mostly happy for having it in their tool kit for now. I know that I am, and like you, I am able to put the problems with it into perspective to not let it preclude my work or enjoyment of a great little camera.

 

Sorry to jump into your fray with Steven, or others, but when I too read his post, I felt as though there was some hand trying to scoff me up back of the head, and personally, I very much resented the thinly disguised insults. I was not going to bother resonding, but like you, feel it is important to get the air clear so that some of us can continue about our business without the armchair static dissuading others that may be able to contribute rather than tear things down.

 

LJ

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[carstenw]

One thing that strikes me now, as it did when the camera initially came out and we were discovering the problems, is that the majority of the criticism comes from people who do not own it. The obvious accusation is that owners are biased and don't want to criticise their investment, but there are lots of people around here mature enough to make a neutral judgment, even as owners, so this just doesn't hold water. I really wish that non-owners would stop posting strongly negative comments until they have had a chance to really use the camera.