Low light performance + white balance in C1 - 5D and M8 experience

[chris_tribble]

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I've just got back from Davos where I was doing documentary work on the fringe of the World Economic Forum. Took the M8 and the two lenses I've got IR cut filters for - 21 elmarit pre-asph and 50 lux pre-asph + a 5D with 85 1.2L and 28-70. I was working close and the lens combinations worked fine.

 

Lessons.

 

1/ get the exposure right with the M8 and it's remarkably competent in very low light. Samples below are at 1250 iso, shutter speeds 1/20th or slower (see Davos_D1_122). With the wide lens (I use the Voigtlander finder), I also find that the M8 is more "realistic" in its rendition of the scene. The lower-noise 5D tends to let you "see what's not visible" - correctly exposed, the M8 tends to give what's there.

 

2/ Once you've got sharpening sorted out in your workflow in C1 there's very little between the M8 and the 5D if exposure is good. M8_Davos 200 and D5 198 were taken within a couple of seconds of one another. I was using the 50 lux and the Canon 28-70L.

 

3/ I found white balance REALLY difficult for the M8 shots - should have used my Whibal card! HOWEVER, a really good work around was to use the 5D shots as a reference for particular scenes and synchronise the white balance for the M8 images against this. I'm very happy with the results (as is my client).

 

4/ Both tools are good for the job. The 5D with the 85 1.2L (old series) remains my preferred portraiture tool. I'll see how things are once I've got the IR filter for my 75 lux, but for the time being I wouldn't leave home for a professional job without this. The good news though is that working wide with the Leica and longer with the 5D makes a really viable combination. I was able to get everything into a large Domke satchel (including both chargers, spare batteries cards etc in the front pockets) + a small toshiba laptop! In the past I'd have taken more Canon glass and a 1Dmk2 as the second body... HEAVY. Now I can carry my stuff onto the plane and not end up with a curved spine.

 

Interested to hear on other people's experiences.

 

Best

 

Chris

PS - just realised that the image names don't show in the post. The sequence is:

 

#1: Canon (28-70)

#2: Canon (85 1.2)

#3: M8 21 2.8

#4: 100% M8 crop (no sharpening other than in C1)

#5: 100% Canon crop (no sharpening other than in C1)

#6: M8 (50 1.4)

[Nitnaros]

Thanks for sharing, Chris.

 

I also shoot Leica (M8, 35-lux, 75-lux; sometimes M7) and Canon 1D-II with the 35/1.4L, 50/1.4, 80/1.2L and 70-200/2.8 IS L.

 

Occasional pixel peeping, but no systematic study, seems to show that the fast Canon primes like the 35/50/85 compete well with the Leica glass. Robust autofocus incl. very low light and great ISO robustness make for a very reliable working combo on the Canon side. I think your shot with the 85L is lovely and has this available light-fast lens feeling.

 

My personal conclusion is that Leica really wins on the compactness, weight and wide-angle side compared to the Canon 1D series (the 5D is obviously lighther than the 1D's)... assuming one accepts a comparison SLR/rangefinder (like apple-oranges)...

 

Peter

[Jamie Roberts]

That 85 1.2L is a lovely lens. I actually sold mine in favour of the Leica 80 1.4 R Summilux; which has a different character altogether, especially in bright light, but I love the 85 Canon, too.

 

We'll see how the 75 lux M stands up

 

As for the 5d and the M8--yes, proper exposure is the key for good high ISO performance in any digital system. The 5d has a higher natural sensitivity, so it's easier to get a good shot starting out, but they're very similar. I've had 1d2s, a 1ds2 and a 5d, but I find myself shooting more and more with the DMR and M8.

 

Where the M8 kills them all, I believe, is the sheer elasticity of the files at lower ISOs. You can blow out highlights with the m8 in ways that would be horrible on the Canons, IMO.

 

I've also found the corollary to that statement: I've actually over exposed low-to-medium ISO M8 shots terribly and was able to find a lot of useful data in the DNG. I'm not recommending people shoot like that, of course, but it's a revelation how much the DNG files actually have beyond the "normal" exposure level. The Canons are very good in this regard too, but I find the M8's has even more development latitude.

[chris_tribble]

Dear Jamie - grateful for your comments ... It was interesting using the M8 in this assignment as it's the first time I'd used it for paid work. It's difficult / impossible / meaningless to compare the two systems - they do different jobs, but they're both good.

 

The continuing challenge for me is the white balance and the way that the two systems deal with light sources. Again - I screwed up by not shooting a WhiBal card at the beginning of the process - I was in a sort of participant / observer mode where I was part of the conversation as well as doing the shoot, so I didn't think this bit through...

 

I was working with B&W 486 IR cut filters on the 50 and 21. What I found was that whichever profile I used (yours, Leica Generic, Edmund's) I ended up depending on the Canon tungsten light white balance - it was closer to what I was seeing and the mood of the evening. It was fine in the end as I was able to match this whole section of the project (over 200 images) against a single white balance reference - the 5D (it was an cellar restaurant in Davos lit by tungsten and candles). What worries me is if a) I'd failed to used the Whibal and I'd only shot Leica... Comparing Kelvin temperatures between correctly exposed shots with the Canon (3700K) as shot and the Leica (2500K) was dramatic, and something that I find difficult to explain.

 

Do you have any thoughts?

 

Best

 

C:

 

Question - do you have any

[Jamie Roberts]

The continuing challenge for me is the white balance and the way that the two systems deal with light sources. Again - I screwed up by not shooting a WhiBal card at the beginning of the process - I was in a sort of participant / observer mode where I was part of the conversation as well as doing the shoot, so I didn't think this bit through...

{snipped}

 

Hey Chris--

 

White balance is always a problem. Without shooting a grey card in tungsten or mixed lighting, you can only rely on your sense of the evening and the mood you're trying to convey.

 

Of course, you get used to looking at the scene to get a good white balance. One thing you could do, even shooting raw, if you've forgotten your grey card, is shoot a custom white balance with a sheet of paper exposed to grey. Works like a charm; you're only tweaking afterwards.

 

I think the leica here was probably a little more neutral than the Canon (the WB temp. seems a bit high to me for tungsten)--but you were there. Neutral isn't always good, though

 

I wouldn't rely on the M8's Auto WB right now because it is a bit messed up; Leica has said they'll fix with firmware. But I've found their presets ok, too; again, I'd do a custom WB shot with something white if I didn't have the grey card around).

[dhoelscher]

Hey Chris,

 

Just my two euro cents is that I've discovered that using an ExpoDisc with the M8's manual white balance doesn't yield exactly the same color temperature as using a WB eyedropper tool in post with a WhiBal card; go figure. That said, WB appears to be a subjective call in terms of what you prefer the image to look like, anyway.

 

DH

[AlanJW]

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Hey Chris,

 

Just my two euro cents is that I've discovered that using an ExpoDisc with the M8's manual white balance doesn't yield exactly the same color temperature as using a WB eyedropper tool in post with a WhiBal card; go figure. That said, WB appears to be a subjective call in terms of what you prefer the image to look like, anyway.

 

DH

 

I've just gotten an expodisc and will be interested to see how it works out. The M8 auto white balance for me seems to work reasonably well in sunny outdoor conditions. Not so for tungsten lighting where auto is awful (and also exaggerates the magenta issue -- I don't have my filters yet)(presetting tungsten helps but is not a complete cure) Mixed lighting with some sunlight and some artificial is going to be tough for any camera and maybe the expodisc will help get closer. My Canon 5D, who's WB is pretty good also trips badly on tungsten. Another reason always to shoot RAW.

[chris_tribble]

My Canon 5D, who's WB is pretty good also trips badly on tungsten. Another reason always to shoot RAW.

 

Couldn't agree more on the shooting raw - and yes, agree with Jamie on the subjectivity of all this. At least with Raw and any of the decent processors we can get a consistent white balance across a set using two completely different cameras. Imagine trying to output for reproduction in a shoot where you'd been forced to mix Provia and Kodachrome... ouch.

 

Best

 

Chris