Washington Posted April 16, 2011 Author Share #41 Posted April 16, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) M.Valdemar, That makes sense…. but what I haven’t grasped yet is why after the first charge does the camera show 100% and after the second not? Maybe after actually being used in the camera it catches the dreaded red-edge? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 16, 2011 Posted April 16, 2011 Hi Washington, Take a look here Non-Leica M9 Battery Test. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted April 16, 2011 Share #42 Posted April 16, 2011 Yes - but these chips have another function as well. Every LiIon battery must have safeguards against overcharging-overheating, because it can ignite violently. With a no-name battery you have no guaranty nor recourse, should it happen. It hasn't happened to Leica batteries, but it has to laptops and Olympus. So pick your gamble. Quite apart from the ethical point that it does not take a genius to figure out under what labour circumstances these batteries must have been made to sell at this price. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Valdemar Posted April 16, 2011 Share #43 Posted April 16, 2011 (edited) The chip that communicates levels data with the camera has absolutely nothing to do with overcharging protection. There is another bit of circuitry that ALL Lithium Ion batteries have that cuts off the charge to a trickle when battery is overcharging. The AC charger itself also has this protection. You have a better chance of winning the lottery than having a battery ignite in your camera. That is a foolish scare story. I don't think you could find even one instance of that happening with an M8 or an M9. The Made-in-China "genuine" Leica battery was likely made in the same factory or of the same components as the no-name battery. The Leica battery perhaps cost a fraction of a cent more than the "no-name" to put the "Leica" name on it. The only difference? Leica marks up their battery for $149 over cost and the "no-name" battery is marked up for about $10 over cost. The accessories are a profit center for Leica, which I do not begrudge them, but let's not exaggerate. I would make a good educated guess that both Leica and no-name batteries cost about $6 to manufacture. You should not post imaginary stories about explosions and ignitions. PS: What "ethics"? The batteries would not be sold if there was no profit. Why is it unethical to buy a non-Leica battery? This is just silly talk. Yes - but these chips have another function as well. Every LiIon battery must have safeguards against overcharging-overheating, because it can ignite violently. With a no-name battery you have no guaranty nor recourse, should it happen. It hasn't happened to Leica batteries, but it has to laptops and Olympus. So pick your gamble. Quite apart from the ethical point that it does not take a genius to figure out under what labour circumstances these batteries must have been made to sell at this price. Edited April 16, 2011 by M. Valdemar 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Valdemar Posted April 16, 2011 Share #44 Posted April 16, 2011 M.Valdemar, That makes sense…. but what I haven’t grasped yet is why after the first charge does the camera show 100% and after the second not? Maybe after actually being used in the camera it catches the dreaded red-edge? As a guess, I would say the camera "talks" to the battery and receives a "no change" bit of data. So the camera assumes the battery is charged. There must be something that "times out" or registers as a second "no change" so the camera is "confused" and displays an inaccurate level of charge. If you insert a "talking" battery a few times later, the camera receives the correct expected data again and recalibrates. (this is entirely a guess but I'm probably pretty close) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 16, 2011 Share #45 Posted April 16, 2011 (edited) Ethics is personal. I will not buy something that I suspect has been made with child labor or with damage to workers' health or with objectionable animal welfare. Rock-bottom priced stuff on the Internet comes under that heading in my book. I trust a factory like Leica to check the sources of their product and am willing to pay for that. If you see that differently and put your wallet first, that is your free choice. And tell me, since you know so exactly, where does Leica source their batteries? Where did you learn the economics of their product chain to be able to produce an exact amount of the markup? It is all speculation on your part. And where did I say a Leica camera was harmed by a battery? Quite the opposite, I should think. But my question is - what is your recourse if something happens with a no-name battery? You say nothing will happen - will you cover my loss? Edited April 16, 2011 by jaapv 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Valdemar Posted April 16, 2011 Share #46 Posted April 16, 2011 The battery and charger for Leica M9 are sourced through Ansmann. (look at the back of your charger) ANSMANN AG: ANSMANN AG Ansmann sources their Lithium batteries here: Manufacturer:GPB ENERGY CO LTD,China (Mainland) Company The actual factories are located in Mainland China. Those familiar with Chinese factories in Guangzhou and Shenzen know that when a "genuine" product is produced for a name brand, the production line will continue to run to produce the knock-off line. A cousin, brother or "family friend" will then market the same item without the trademark. This happens everywhere. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 16, 2011 Share #47 Posted April 16, 2011 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) So if that were true - why is there a clear difference between the electronics of the el-cheapo batteries and the Leica ones? Obviously the factories that make Leica/Ansmann batteries don't have to reverse-engineer the chip.....More likely these batteries come from places like this : http://www.china-labour.org.hk/en/node/100912 Edited April 16, 2011 by jaapv Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Valdemar Posted April 16, 2011 Share #48 Posted April 16, 2011 Oh, please. Let's not scour the internet for stories about injured workers in battery factories and apply it to this argument. You are setting up a straw man here. The reason the chip may not be included is because Leica might use a proprietary chip which might have an embedded copyright. They cannot steal that chip without reverse engineering it because the Leica copyright will show up in the pirate product and give away where it came from. So it is left out. Eventually, they will find some bright guy to decode it and clone the chip without the copyright. It just takes a little work. Canon batteries are sold in the tens if not hundreds of thousands per year. Leica batteries sell only a few hundred or a thousand. Not even enough profit to make plastic molds, no less clone the chip. So they obviously come from extended factory runs. Eventually, the chips will be cloned, don't worry. The Chinese copy EVERYTHING. PS: Have you read about the suicides and child labor in Foxcomm factories that make all the Apple products? Do you have a Mac? An iPhone? An iPod or iPad? SHAME on you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 16, 2011 Share #49 Posted April 16, 2011 (edited) Yup - ethical business practice is more prevalent in Europe than in the States due to public pressure - you're right. But your side is catching up. I deal with these issues on a daily basis. Nowadays, in my line of work, a lot of lab work is sent out to China. I can get a piece that costs for instance 250 Euro over here through controlled channels for 150, and be able to guarantee my patients that the quality is on a top level and that the technicians are decently paid in a well-led facility which has ISO certification - or I could go through other channels and get "the same" thing for 25 Euro - from dubious materials and made in a sweat shop even with a fake certificate. Btw - I didn't buy a MacPro because it was cheap... Edited April 16, 2011 by jaapv Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washington Posted April 16, 2011 Author Share #50 Posted April 16, 2011 I can not speak to the working conditions in China because I haven’t been there. But, I have read about working conditions improving and salaries being raised and the middle-class in China is rapidly growing as China is using the same philosophy that America once practiced (think Henry Ford) that the workers have to be paid enough to become consumers ….. and indeed they are. Here, the middle class is being destroyed. Anyway, I have found it interesting to carefully examine the plastic casing of the Leica and two other off-brand batteries…. and they are identical in every detail as if from the same mold. The surface of the Leica is very slightly rougher than the other two …. but they sure have the same minor details. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 16, 2011 Share #51 Posted April 16, 2011 As it should be and as it is, Rip, I see the technicians in the lab I work with being able to scramble into the middle class. But in the back country in small towns, it is a different story, I'm told. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan States Posted April 16, 2011 Share #52 Posted April 16, 2011 What is it about the human race that makes us capable of spending $7000 on a camera and then getting a stiffy over saving $100 bucks on a battery that may not even work right? There ought to be a study. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted April 16, 2011 Share #53 Posted April 16, 2011 What is it about the human race that makes us capable of spending $7000 on a camera and then getting a stiffy over saving $100 bucks on a battery that may not even work right? There ought to be a study. Well, if you feel that spending more on batteries of the same value makes you a better man, send me a PM. I will gladly sell you some batteries at their tenfold price. Imagine how much better they will be and how much better your photography will become. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted April 16, 2011 Share #54 Posted April 16, 2011 What is it about the human race that makes us capable of spending $7000 on a camera and then getting a stiffy over saving $100 bucks on a battery that may not even work right? There ought to be a study. I just don't see the logical connection between your two statements. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washington Posted April 16, 2011 Author Share #55 Posted April 16, 2011 (edited) Dan, if you read the title of this thread it says this is only a test (1,2,3,4). It’s been a great exchange of information as far as I am concerned… and nobody is being anything. Paul, that fellow who negatively posted on the link you provided said something that caught my eye…. and that is the battery was delivered at 2/3d’s charge (or was it 3/4?) Anyway, how did he know unless he stuck it right in the camera and used it? I may be wrong, but don’t they instruct you to charge the battery fully before use? Then he goes on to say he drained it. Again, I dunno, but could it be by NOT charging it the battery drained below the 2.4 volt cut-off limit and won’t take a charge unless’’boosted’’ in one of those special chargers? Edited April 16, 2011 by Washington Typo Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washington Posted April 16, 2011 Author Share #56 Posted April 16, 2011 The battery ‘’ignition/explosion’’ problem can only come about because of heat generated by over-charging. And, perhaps heat generated by a rapid discharge like a short-circuit. The actual cases of Li-ion battery ignition are rare but have happened. The failure of one chip could cause overcharging to the point of ignition. But, Leica batteries are not charged in the camera….. and the chances of radical failure to cause rapid discharge are very, very slim. Batteries do contain temperature sensitive chips that shut charging down if exceeded. But, anything can fail. I’m trying something right now and I’ll see what I learn…. as soon as I figure out what I’m doing! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/148213-non-leica-m9-battery-test/?do=findComment&comment=1647856'>More sharing options...
Bert N Posted April 17, 2011 Share #57 Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) I actually don't disagree with you here, but I think that while the chance of battery malfunction resulting in damage to the camera is remote, it is non-zero, and because of this, companies like Panasonic, have implemented means to detect and prevent the use of 3rd party batteries in their cameras, one may argue that this is simply due to greed on their part, but in reality, the penalty and related costs for exposing your customers to potential harm, legally and financially, are just far too high to ignore. You have a better chance of winning the lottery than having a battery ignite in your camera. That is a foolish scare story. I don't think you could find even one instance of that happening with an M8 or an M9. Edited April 17, 2011 by Bert N 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washington Posted April 17, 2011 Author Share #58 Posted April 17, 2011 Bert, Indeed, and may very well be the case here. But, I don’t think (but I don’t know) that anyone one would produce a product with a guaranteed failure in mind. But, having said that, in todays world anything, no matter how diabolical, is done for profit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted April 17, 2011 Share #59 Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) There is no doubt that the non-Leica batteries do not perform as well as the genuine ones- at least not the ones I have. They routinely have charging issues- showing as empty when fully charged. But I just ignore the warning- start shooting and then they work fine. The argument that non genuine batteries may be less ethical than genuine ones is pure speculation. The fact is we don't know the labor conditions of the factory/s concerned and we don't know what Leica pays for the batteries. It could be that the non genuine ones are less exploitative. They all come from China- and I dislike the way some people are quick to bash China on one matter whilst ignoring all the other products and services that they themselves take from China. It may be true that European workers enjoy better pay and conditions than elsewhere- but how about employees/contractors of European companies in the third world? In the west we enjoy better conditions largely because we 'offshore' the truly exploitative stuff to the the Third World. It's called neo-colonialism and it is in full swing. Add to that all the historical wealth the West accrued from the Colonial era and you have your answer as to why we have a better standard of living today. We live off the so called Third World and have done so for the last few hundred years... Edited April 17, 2011 by jaques 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted April 17, 2011 Share #60 Posted April 17, 2011 What is it about the human race that makes us capable of spending $7000 on a camera and then getting a stiffy over saving $100 bucks on a battery that may not even work right? There ought to be a study. No need to study how a 25cent bit of circuitry fitted in a $5 battery turns it into a $100 battery. Its a pity its fitted inside the camera, you pay so much for the name Leica could at least supply a transfer to stick on your forehead that says 'I buy Leica batteries'. It would mark us out, but as what is open to debate. Steve 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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