macusque Posted January 29, 2007 Share #1 Posted January 29, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I noticed that the new 2x Apo ROM is different from the previous non-ROM 2x Apo. It is shorter and it has a larger section in the middle. Are they optically the same ? While reading the Leica Apo Extenders section at leica website I came across this statement about the 2x Apo ROM, which I really don't understand... The LEICA APO-EXTENDER-R 2x, constructed from seven elements in five groups, is designed for lens units with a maximum aperture of 1:2 or smaller, and they reduces the aperture by 2 f/stops. So when used with the LEICA SUMMILUX-R 50 mm f/1.4, for example, there is no increase in light compared to using a lens with a 1:2 aperture number. This means an exposure compensation of -1EV is needed, and the Summilux should be stopped down to at least to f/2. I realize that any f/1.4 lens won't perform very well with the 2x Apo, giving it is designed for f/2 lenses up. But that using a 50/1.4 "there's no increase in light compared to using a lens with a 1:2 aperture.." is something beyond me... I just bought a used 180 Apo-Summicron which I find absolutely amazing, but it seems it doesn't perform very well with the 1.4x Apo. I need to stop down to f/4 (f/5.6 effective) to let the lens shine. Indeed on the same page at leica website the 1.4x Apo is said to be designed for f/2.8 lenses or slower: The LEICA APO-EXTENDER-R 1.4x, is of five-element construction and is designed for lenses with maximum apertures of 1:2.8 and below, and reduces the effective aperture by one stop. Lenses with a maximum aperture of 1:2 should therefore be stopped down by approximately one to two stops. Maybe the 180 Apo-Summicron performs better with the 2x than with the 1.4x ? I was told from some users that it's the contrary, but the 180/2 + 1.4x Apo is actually a so-so combination if you intend to use it wide open and thereabout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 Hi macusque, Take a look here About Apo Extenders. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
robsteve Posted January 29, 2007 Share #2 Posted January 29, 2007 Marco: It all has to do with the size of the rear element or exit pupil of the lens mounted to the converter. It this is bigger than the area the extender covers, it is not getting all the light from the lens. For example, look how large the rear element of your 180mm APO Summicron is compared to the first element of the 1.4x extender. The 1.4 should perform very well on your 180mm APO Summicron. You are either having focus problems or camera shake. If stopping down helps, I would assume focus problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macusque Posted January 29, 2007 Author Share #3 Posted January 29, 2007 Robert, thanks as always for your prompt answer Maybe my 1.4x Apo is a bad sample, sadly I can't test it with any of my other lenses... I bought it along with the 280/4 Apo which is at Solms now... they need to replace the focussing lenses group... 800 €... ! Anyway I do find it rather soft (by Leica standard) at f/2 and a bit also at f/2.8. At f/4 (f/5.6 effective) the the combo works great in the center while the image is visibly softer at corners. I don't know if it is typical, I guess not. I attached four 100% crops from my test on the DMR. Tripod, mirror lockup, selftimer 2 sec. CaptureOne, zero sharpening. f/2 (effective f/2.8) center f/4 (effective f/5.6) center f/2 (effective f/2.8) bottom right corner f/4 (effective f/5.6) bottom right corner Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/14776-about-apo-extenders/?do=findComment&comment=156137'>More sharing options...
macusque Posted January 29, 2007 Author Share #4 Posted January 29, 2007 Is this typical for the 1.4x Apo on the 180/2 ? Does the 2x Apo produce similar results with this lens ? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted January 29, 2007 Share #5 Posted January 29, 2007 Marco: I don't think I have used my 180mm with the converters on the DMR. Even on film, I usually just went to the bigger 2.8 APO Telyts if I needed more reach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macusque Posted January 29, 2007 Author Share #6 Posted January 29, 2007 Yes Robert, I usually use extenders on my longest lens too... but I'm curious about the performance of the 180+2x as maybe I could sometimes skip the 280/4 Apo. Giving I'm using also an M8 for normal and wide, I appreciate the cropping factor on the DMR and the 180 Apo-Summicron is like a 250/2, enough for 90% of my needs. But sometimes a 500/4 would be nice to have... I would have liked the 1.4x to perform better on the 180/2, but I just noticed that also Erwin Puts in his "column" about the 180 Apo-Summicron states: "The 2x Extender can be used with full confidence at full aperture (but there is more vignetting), and the 1.4 Extender should be stopped down two stops for best performance." His comments on the 1.4x is spot on indeed, so... well... if the 180 + 2x Apo would give similar results wide open to what I get with the 1.4x at f/4 (f/5.6 effective), I'd seriously consider it as it's quite sharp and contrasty in the center and field, only the extreme edges are rather soft (and I rarely shoot big flat subjects wide open at 500mm...). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted January 30, 2007 Share #7 Posted January 30, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yes Robert, I usually use extenders on my longest lens too... but I'm curious about the performance of the 180+2x as maybe I could sometimes skip the 280/4 Apo. Giving I'm using also an M8 for normal and wide, I appreciate the cropping factor on the DMR and the 180 Apo-Summicron is like a 250/2, enough for 90% of my needs. But sometimes a 500/4 would be nice to have... I would have liked the 1.4x to perform better on the 180/2, but I just noticed that also Erwin Puts in his "column" about the 180 Apo-Summicron states: "The 2x Extender can be used with full confidence at full aperture (but there is more vignetting), and the 1.4 Extender should be stopped down two stops for best performance." His comments on the 1.4x is spot on indeed, so... well... if the 180 + 2x Apo would give similar results wide open to what I get with the 1.4x at f/4 (f/5.6 effective), I'd seriously consider it as it's quite sharp and contrasty in the center and field, only the extreme edges are rather soft (and I rarely shoot big flat subjects wide open at 500mm...). This is surprising..but it seems like you have the facts. I use the 1.4 APO extender with the 280 2.8 wide open. I see very little loss in image quality with the 1.4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 30, 2007 Share #8 Posted January 30, 2007 Me too with the 180 F2 it seems great not sure what this means Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macusque Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share #9 Posted January 30, 2007 Guy, did you get similar quality with your 180/2 and 1.4x Apo ? Did you try the combo wide open or only stopped down ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidigital Posted January 30, 2007 Share #10 Posted January 30, 2007 Marco, When I had my R gear, I frequently used the 2X apo extender with the 180/2 with great success. It was a nice combination to have when I couldn't bring any of the longer lenses. I didn't have the 1.4X apo extender. Here's one with the combination. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/14776-about-apo-extenders/?do=findComment&comment=156790'>More sharing options...
macusque Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share #11 Posted January 30, 2007 Thanks Kurt, nice shot, was it taken wide open (f/4 effective) ? Could you provide any higher magnification crop of the 180/2+2x ? Incidentally I received the final offer from Solms for adjustment of my 280/4 Apo-Telyt (I bought it used and never satisfied me sharpness wise, it was good only at f/8): changing focussing group plus cleaning and fine tuning, plus adding ROM contacts... total of about 1,400 USD !! What should I do ? I know the 280/4 Apo is one of the best lenses out there and the 280+1.4x surely beats the 180+2x, but if the latter combo would give good results for the limited times where I need it, I could save quite a bit of money... 1,400 $ + the 280 Apo itself less the 2x Apo, about 3,000 $ for sure... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted January 30, 2007 Share #12 Posted January 30, 2007 Well, if you have to sell, you should consider which way you would get more for it. If it needs the adjustment, then if you mention so in the ad, I would expect that you would get even less by not fixing it first, as compared to fixing it. Check out used prices. Not updating probably does not make sense. I am in the same situation with my CZJ 20mm Flektogon, although on 1/10th the scale. I will probably need to have it lubed to be able to sell it at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macusque Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share #13 Posted January 30, 2007 This is correct Carsten, I will go for the adjustment and see how much I'll like the lens. Then, I could always sell it for the correct price. I won't recup the expense I made for the lens plus the adjustment, but at least I'll have more options than now... Any other sample of the 180/2 + 2x Apo ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
telyt Posted January 30, 2007 Share #14 Posted January 30, 2007 I will go for the adjustment and see how much I'll like the lens.Then, I could always sell it for the correct price. My guess is that once you see what a properly-repaired 280 f/4 can do you'll think twice about selling it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macusque Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share #15 Posted January 30, 2007 Amazing images Doug! But coming from you this is a bit unfair... I'll never have your skill, whatever lens I'll going to keep !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted January 30, 2007 Share #16 Posted January 30, 2007 Incidentally I received the final offer from Solms for adjustment of my 280/4 Apo-Telyt (I bought it used and never satisfied me sharpness wise, it was good only at f/8): changing focussing group plus cleaning and fine tuning, plus adding ROM contacts... total of about 1,400 USD !! What should I do ? You should talk to the guy that originally sold you the lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertknappmd Posted January 30, 2007 Share #17 Posted January 30, 2007 Beautiful photos, Doug... One other important but oerlooked issue about the 2X is that you MUST ALWAYS ATTACH THE 2X FIRST TO THE CAMERA AND THEN ATTACH THE LENS TO THE 2X. IF YOU DO THIS THE OTHER WAY AROUND (IE LENS TO 2X AND THEN TO CAMERA) You risk ruining your lens..... very very important. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macusque Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share #18 Posted January 30, 2007 Thank you Albert for the reminder. Is it true also for the 1.4x ? You should talk to the guy that originally sold you the lens. Rob, I asked him, but this is what he answered me: "Hi Marco, About the sharpness problem of the two lenses, honestly, I am very lazy to check sharpness etc in all the stop. I have never done it. You seem to be very smart in technical thing. I have never ever made test pictures from widest open till tightest apperture in my life to compare the sharpness. I never noticed the sharpness issue you mentioned. Also, virtually I never shoot at widest apperture but rather use tripod just because of the impression that I can not get depth of filed and most of the lenses at widest apperture are not very sharp. I always shoot at nature, almost never in studio, so that could be another reason I don't shoot wide. All I can say is I was quite happy with both the lenses and never noticed the problem. Yes, I bought both of them used but in very good condition." He referred to two lenses because I bought from him also a 100 Apo-Macro (non-ROM) which was only average wide open until f/5.6, similar to the 280 behaviour... I initially thought to be crazy... but I trust my eyes and I don't need to test to death to recognize a great lens from an average one... a bunch of well taken shots are usually enough. Instead of sending also the 100 Apo to Solms, I bought another one (older but ROMed) on ebay and this one is absolutely stunning even wide open, it is actually sharper and more "clean" wide open than the other 100 at f/8... I bought from him also a 50/2 ROM (perfect) and the 1.4x Apo, which I only briefly tried on the 280/4 and it seemed to work quite well (despite the sub-par lens). Anyway I trust the seller as he's a photographer and a member also at Fredmiranda. Mabe he didn't use the 280 Apo extensively and the 100 Apo only stopped down for macro. He also doesn't use a DMR, he's still on film (but I guess he's switching to Canon DSLRs), so maybe he's not so critical in his evaluations. I presume this is only one of the risks of buying second hand from a private seller without previously testing... looking forward now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertknappmd Posted January 30, 2007 Share #19 Posted January 30, 2007 I DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THE 1.4x Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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