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due163

why do so many M8 users shoot......

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I see this thread has wandered off into IR land but the original post was about BW.

 

I'm sure that one of the reasons why many of us get attracted to doing Black and White pictures is that, initially an idea of exploring the "Leica Tradition" can act as quite a motivator. Once tried it can be totally addictive - sure there's the walking in Cartier-Bresson's footsteps hero worship element to it - but best of all Leica lenses really show that virtually nothing else can touch them for quality, B&W is a real leveller for lenses.

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I stated it was 'a bad choice'

 

What I meant by trying a Google search for IR M8 was exactly what you did; Nothing

 

However if you search for: 'IR Nikon D200' then you will find a wealth of IR

 

Well, yes, there are about 1000 D200s sold for every M8, so that is hardly surprising, plus one has to operate on the camera, whilst on the M8 it is just a normal feature.

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Those IR shots are kind of cool. How do you shoot them? Serious question. I'm probably going to order a UV/IR filter to fit my Summicron 50 and I'd like to try taking some shots like that. Will this filter do the trick? Or do you need a specialist filter for IR only?

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Those IR shots are kind of cool. How do you shoot them? Serious question. I'm probably going to order a UV/IR filter to fit my Summicron 50 and I'd like to try taking some shots like that. Will this filter do the trick? Or do you need a specialist filter for IR only?

A UV/IR filter won't do it for you because it stops infrared light and allows visible light to pass through.

 

To take pictures like Jaap and I have posted you need to do the opposite: stop the visible light and let the infrared light pass through. For this you'll need an infrared pass filter and there are a few to choose from. The common ones are the B+W 092 (dark red) and the B+W 093 (black), which are similar to filters sold by other manufacturers like Kodak Wratten 089B and 087C, Heliopan RG 695 and RG 830, Hoya R72 etc.

 

The 092 allows a little bit of visible red light through but the 093 stops all visible light and they produce different looking pictures.

 

When you have your IR-pass filter just screw it onto your lens and start shooting with your M8. If you shoot in raw (recommended) the files will look red and white so you'll need to post process them with Photoshop, Lightroom, Capture One or the software of your choice to produce pictures that look like Jaap's and mine. If you want to know more search the forum and you'll find plenty of threads about infrared.

 

Pete.

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I can't find the IR response chart for the M8, so I an unable to back up my statement at this point.

 

I have asked some of the UV and IR people I know to help me find or do some testing to get the data, that I think will be beneficial anyway, if nothing else then to settle this discussion with some facts

 

And, aparently you are a lot of happy IR shooters:D so please disregard my statement and shoot away those IR shots with your M8

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I can't find the IR response chart for the M8, so I an unable to back up my statement at this point.

 

I have asked some of the UV and IR people I know to help me find or do some testing to get the data, that I think will be beneficial anyway, if nothing else then to settle this discussion with some facts

 

And, aparently you are a lot of happy IR shooters:D so please disregard my statement and shoot away those IR shots with your M8

Erik,

 

I know from the filters that I've used that the M8's sensor's response to the electromagnetic spectrum extends well beyond 850 nm. I used a filter with a steep roll-off below 850 nm and was able to take pictures through it so I conservatively estimate that the sensor is still responding well at 1,000 nm. (The 093 filter transmits spectrum from about 720 nm upwards. The visible spectrum is c. 400 to 720 nm)

 

Incidentally, my (unconfirmed) suspicion from dealing with similar photodiode detectors used in optical fibre communication systems is that the sensor's response is unlikely to significantly attenuate before 2,000 nm.

 

Pete.

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Anyway, what is stopping you from having the IR filter removed from the M8 (or M9 for that matter) ? I can tell you - these cameras are too expensive to muck about with - that is the real reason midrange Canons and Nikons are used in this field.

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I can't find the IR response chart for the M8, so I an unable to back up my statement at this point. ...

Erik,

 

The M8's sensor is Kodak KAF-10500 CCD sensor.

 

Page 6 of the attached Kodak Image Sensor Application Notes contains a Quantum Efficiency characteristic for its sensors, which plots the efficiency that its photodiodes convert light into electrical charge against wavelength.

 

It shows that QE is down to 30% at 850 nm but doesn't plot for wavelengths beyond.

 

Pete.

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I've used a black 093 filter on my M8 with good results. The resulting images come out purple, so you have to desaturate them, but the exposure is usually file. Focussing needs to be adjusted though, with the 25mm Voigtlander I tended to use I focussed using the right hand side f4 marking as you looked down the camera.

 

A couple of examples...

 

 

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Great photographs Steve.

 

Any old lens will have had the 'R' (IR) focus mark at about the f4 mark on the lens

And it's what I use on my IR

One other thing to add, I've found it best to set the W.B. to 2000k (it's the lowest you can get on am M8) - It's not vital if you use raw but it helps in the processing after in Lightroom etc.

It's quite easy, and on a bright day at 320ISO you can use the camera handheld.

 

For the price of an IR filter a whole new field of photography opens!

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Anyway, what is stopping you from having the IR filter removed from the M8 (or M9 for that matter) ? I can tell you - these cameras are too expensive to muck about with - that is the real reason midrange Canons and Nikons are used in this field.

Actually no. I have modified/completely rebuild lenses that are more expensive than the M8 so thats not holding me back.

The High end Nikon and Canon bodies are converted, also professionally, but the D200 is chosen for IR because the sensor is so good for it.

Apparently you don't do modifications your self or?

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But would you really chisel off the IR filter from a (for the sake of the argument) M8 ?

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Sure, If that what it takes, the camera is fairly easy to take apart as posted here on the site long ago.

 

The most radical mods I have done are; the Noct-Nikkor 58/1.2, I did a full disassembly and modified the rear element group and mount to fit a custom made CPU chip to make it fully compatible with the D3 another was a APO Lanthar Macro 125/2.5 where I converted it from a Canon FD mount to Nikon F, that particular lens was better than the F-mout I had,,,

 

A warning is not to IR convert the current high end Nikon DSLR cameras; D3, D3X, D700 because they have IR emitter/sensor build into the shutter that contaminates the captured image, a solution has not yet been developed. The sensor checks and adjust the shutter each time it's fired,,, New is not necessarily better,,,

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Diglloyd has a rather comprehensive review of the M8 including IR, here is a couple of statements from his findings:

Quote

...Only removal/replacement of the sensor cover glass would allow true infrared while excluding very deep visible red light...

 

...Because the green and blue photosites offer almost no spectral response beyond 650nm, digital noise and image detail are concerns, since nearly all data is going to come from the red photosites, which comprise only 1/3 of the total photosites...

 

..No one should rush out to buy the US$5500 Leica M8 for its infrared capabilities, since a digital SLR can be purchased and modified for dedicated infrared use for $1200 or less. But for existing Leica M8 owners, or prospective owners “on the fence” the additional flexibility is a nice bonus...

Unquote

Here is a link to Nikon D200 Study the D200 spectral sensitivity, I think the word is superior

 

Old prices in the review for both, today a used D200 would set you back 500USD and 200USD for the filter,,,

 

Overall hes is very impressed by the image quality of the M8, as you are

Edited by Erik Gunst Lund

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Some images work better in b&w, but most importantly, the mindset during shooting is completely different when shooting for b&w. I find myself looking for structure and composition and crazy contrasts that I would not shoot with color.

 

However, converting color digital images to b&w feels like a "photoshop filter", like chasing nostalgia and making fakes. So after shooting b&w for some time with my M8 I finaly went back to film for b&w. Now I use M8 only for color shots and M6 + Tri-X 400 + a filmscanner for b&w.

 

Here's a recent shot on Tri-X 400. Would not work in color and would not be authentic with digital.

Hotel | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

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Here's a recent shot on Tri-X 400. Would not work in color and would not be authentic with digital.

Hotel | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

Why is a picture such as 'Grid 7' in color rather than b/w? Your personal choice, of course, but since you raised the distinction, I'm curious since the color seems secondary.

 

Jeff

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Why is a picture such as 'Grid 7' in color rather than b/w? Your personal choice, of course, but since you raised the distinction, I'm curious since the color seems secondary.

 

Link to the image in question:

Grid 7 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

True, that shot could be b/w but it would be rather flat. What I personally enjoy most about b/w as an artistic choice is the ability to capture huge contrasts (film noir-esque) and clear all distractions from the focus point (subject) of the image. Below some examples.

 

Example 1:

Free hugs I | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

This M8 shot did not seem very interesting in color. The people, the ice cream stand etc are all colorful and where distracting the subject of the image. In b/w the focus point of the image is loud and clear and the curious space around the guy clearly noticeable.

 

Example 2:

Slow walking | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

In this one the man's shape would just blend into the image if it was in color. Now in b/w the image seems interesting. Somehow the moment of him shifting his weight gives that little detail needed to make it work.

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