Real facts

[davidrc]

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I handled my first digital M recently and I am seriously looking into changing from a DSLR.

I have read with great interest about all the problems that have occurred with M8's through M9.

So much of it is so speculative that it is bordering on the ridiculous. However, apart from actual press releases and high level common knowledge, it is hard to gauge the level of problem percentage.

Have you all seen the short video of a factory tour on assembling the M9?

 

Assembling the Leica M9

 

I suggest you all do, it is illuminating to say the least. Clearly, any QC issues (unless off camera) exists in component production as these people and their working environment are excellent.

It is said that it takes 8 hours to assemble and test the cameras before completion to despatch. Now there seemed to be about 4/5 staff in that area which was described as the assembly area. Production is said to be about 1000 units of M9 per month. This is perfectly achievable. And they certainly were not rushing.

 

Within this forum I found the sensor crack issue and much speculation regarding it.

One member seems to imply that this SC saga is over, is it? Can anyone say Leica declared it so.

The idea of a simple log of faulty sensors (and any other faults) was a good one.

Lets have one on other matters please.

What about the quote about high ISO issues if the sensor is hot (overheating surely?).

Lets have someone more used to the working of this forum (and Leica) to make a dedicated string of all know repeated faults.

DOA.

Sensor issues.

Image quality faults (actually confirmed by Leica)

And so on.

 

This would really be helpful if someone (hopefully with Leica connections) could collate all and report. IF the problems are as widespread as (some) people seem to think then we all owe it to ourselves to find out.

Don't whinge about Leica not revealing anything, they are not going to unless absolutely necessary - get real everyone, they are a company, just like any other.

The problem is that the M line is such a good product and instrument for taking photos and is held in such high esteem that we all put Leica on a pedestal.

When they appear to let the perceived halo slip......all hell breaks loose. And judging by the video, that's unjustified.

But, i've not just spent £5k (more than other countries in real terms I may add) and found it DOA.

1000 units a month. What would you like to think is an acceptable failure rate? Don't say none, it is impossible.

In the real world of manufacturing 1 or 2 %, for no particular reason, is deemed more than acceptable at least and in some cases it is a lot higher.

 

A car maker made a version of a car some years ago, the version had a recall for the bonnet catch replacement as it was liable to collapse.

Imagine the damage and potential hazard it could cause. And one DID to a family member who bought a S/H **** from a owner who did not abide by the recall and sold it on later. The car was wrote off when the bonnet flew up and back. And it was a great number of cars involved as a % which failed on the road.

So, if that car sells in millions and it is allowed to have such a design fault, where does that leave a camera?

 

It is a camera we are talking about here remember, don't expect miracles from a company with millions invested and a vested interest to protect.

I'd like this forum just to reveal the FACTS as known, that will do.

 

As a potential user I desperately need someone to sift the wheat from chaff. No point asking a dealer i've tried. It will only get you so far.

So....anyone out there in the real know? An assessment, a real one seems to be badly needed.

 

Here's hoping.

Edited February 19, 2011 by davidrc

[mgreernz]

Ho hum.

 

The "real fact" for me was yes, I was one of those with a new M9 that had to go back to Solms for a rebuild after just 23 days. And yes, I gnashed my teeth, ranted and raved - perhaps justifiably. Did it make me feel better? I guess so.

 

But get over it, you've got to tell yourself.

 

So my humble advice? If you want an M9, just go out and buy it. Does misfortune occur? Sure it does. But am I a consumer advocate or a photographer? I'm a photographer.

 

You're a photographer? Great. Then just buy it and get on with it.

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[adan]

"One member seems to imply that this SC saga is over, is it? Can anyone say Leica declared it so."

 

Well, it won't be "over" until every sensor liable to cracking has done so. Which could be years. I'm pretty sure Leica said they had tracked down the source of the problem.

 

The data seem to show that no camera purchased after Jan. 2010 has had a crack - and that all cracks so far showed up within 328 days of purchase (Sorry if I missed one). I've put in a PM to one of the shepherds of the list requesting some updated graphs of such things - easier to see in a curve than in a string of numbers.

 

As to noise and "hot" sensors - unless EVERYONE carries around temperature probes and interrupts their shooting to keep track of temp. vs. noise, this will never be more than anecdotal. How hot is "hot?"

 

This forum has had a "spotty" record as a source for tracking problems. Very good in the case of the M8 "purple clothing" (IR) problem, and the sensor cracks (Stefan Daniel of Leica actually logged on to ask for serial number and such on the very first sensor crack thread). But also muddied by the occasional person with a bee on their bonnet about a particular issue that only they have experienced.

 

In other words, if 5% of forum members report some kind of problem, there is no way I would accept that as a representative sample and assume therefore that 5% of ALL M9s have the problem. I don't believe the forum is a representative sampling of Leica owners - which is not to say that they aren't generally good and knowledgeable people!

 

We don't even know with any certainty how many M9s have been made, which makes it really hard to come up with a meaningful "percentage" for any given problem. If we come up with 50 instances of something, is that out of 15,000 cameras? or 20,000? or 25,000?

 

But hope abides... Maybe you'll get what you're looking for.

[250swb]

Welcome to the forum davidrc.

 

Its a very long first post and I tend to think you are looking for some justification one way or another to buy, or not to buy, and M9. Which makes me think that you don't know if you really want one. You are suffering GAS. So walk away.

 

The small number of failures in any camera system are far outweighed by the silent majority of people who have never had a problem. Asking for detailed statistics isn't going to get you anywhere. If you buy the camera there is only a tiny chance you will encounter a problem. Go and have a look at Canon or Nikon forums, they have problems as well. But if you want numbers of failures itemised into categories it will only make sense if you know how many were built, and Leica are unlikely to tell you. Leica are also unlikely to annoy their partner Kodak by telling us 'its all their fault' for the cracked sensor problem. So piss or get off the pot (meant in the nicest possible way), but don't buy an M9 if it isn't going to suit you, that would be a 'problem' of another order.

 

Steve

[stunsworth]

No one here knows, or will know, what the failure rate is, or for that matter, many of the other issues you mention.

[Rick]

David, the camera actually sucks. It is fraught with problems. The QC is abysmal and if, the sensor doesn't fracture on you out of the box then the noisy pixels will drive your crazy when you have to increase the ISO! Also, I hope you are old and deaf. Otherwise you are going to go absolutely nuts with the rattle from the new 35 Lux! Yeah, the lenses make noise if you shake them real hard. And, some of the dials (like the shutter dial) move a bit if, you push down on them... how screwed up is that? Oh, there is a huge problem with the shutter lag. The amount of lag between the time when you push the shutter button and when the camera gets around to opening up the first curtain is sooooo long, you might as well just buy a PAS. The shutter button on this M9 takes FOREVER to trip the shutter! About, 0.09 of a second. This has caused buyers (one at least) to return the camera after just 4 days of obsessive compulsive use.

 

I hope I am addressing your "desperate need for someone to sift the wheat from the chaff" for you. The "wheat" of the matter is; these are cameras you collect, they are not cameras that you actually want to use, unless you own a lot of cats. I am trying to be totally serious here since, David, you strike me as a serious first poster not a Troll.

 

 

Is there anyway we can get delisted from Google?

Edited February 19, 2011 by RickLeica

[likalar]

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<<The idea of a simple log of faulty sensors (and any other faults) was a good one.

Lets have one on other matters please.

What about the quote about high ISO issues if the sensor is hot (overheating surely?).

Lets have someone more used to the working of this forum (and Leica) to make a dedicated string of all know repeated faults.

DOA.Sensor issues. Image quality faults (actually confirmed by Leica)

And so on.

 

This would really be helpful if someone (hopefully with Leica connections) could collate all and report. >>

 

Sounds like you're handing out work assignments with these "Let's haves". What's the pay rate? ;-)

Just get one and use it. The company stands by the product if there's a problem. (mine has 11,000 exposures and zero problems. I believe most have no problems, but who knows?). Good luck.

 

Larry

[mby]

(...) As to noise and "hot" sensors - unless EVERYONE carries around temperature probes and interrupts their shooting to keep track of temp. vs. noise, this will never be more than anecdotal. How hot is "hot?" (...)

 

At least with regards to the temperature probe, your M9 can help: it's all in the metadata:

---- ExifTool ----
ExifToolVersion: 8.49
---- File ----
FileType: DNG
MIMEType: image/x-adobe-dng
ExifByteOrder: Little-endian (Intel, II)
---- IFD0 ----
Make: Leica Camera AG
Model: M9 Digital Camera
Software: 1.138
---- ExifIFD ----
ExifVersion: 0220
CreateDate: 2011:02:13 17:43:27
---- Leica ----
CameraTemperature: 15 C

 

Best regards,

Michael

[Erik Gunst Lund]

I will recommend to buy a digital M, I have a M8u will not go into the M8 or M9 here

But don't buy a M instead of a DSLR, buy it as an addition;

There are strong sides to both, here you will see what the M's are good for, on other sites you will se what DSLR's are good for. I can highly recommend NikonGear

In other words, they compliment each other very well, but not a substitution IMHO

[Viv]

Real facts? Are there "unreal facts" or perhaps "surreal facts"?

 

Here is a "real" fact: My M9 has worked from day1. When I say "worked" I mean that it has consistently produced the images I wanted it to produce, without any problems or malfunctions.

 

It has not been babied. It has not been half-Luigi'd, Thumbed up or calibnrated. It lives mostly in the boot of my car. It has been used in extremes of cold, heat and dust (but never to photograph cats).

 

It just does what it's supposed to.

 

My Nikon D700 and Zeiss Ikon also do what they are supposed to. Always.

 

This is my personal experience. The experience of others may or may not be different. I don't care whether they are. Or not.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Viv

[pop]

The experience of others may or may not be different. I don't care whether it is or not.

 

That's perfectly all right. I am just a little bit puzzled as to why you post it here if you really don't care.

[Viv]

That's perfectly all right. I am just a little bit puzzled as to why you post it here if you really don't care.

 

Perhaps because I am a selfish narcissist with a craving for publicity? Or perhaps not ...

 

I am so sorry that you are puzzled, but at least it is only a little bit.

[pop]

I am so sorry that you are puzzled, but at least it is only a little bit.

 

Then you have to be sorry only a little bit, of course.

[Viv]

Then you have to be sorry only a little bit, of course.

 

Excellent! Well said, Sir!

I would lift my hat to you, but I don't wear it indoors.

[lct]

...It has not been babied. It has not been half-Luigi'd, Thumbed up or calibnrated. It lives mostly in the boot of my car. It has been used in extremes of cold, heat and dust (but never to photograph cats)...

So your advice is to buy a Luigi case and a Thumb up if we want to shoot cats?

[Nicoleica]

So your advice is to buy a Luigi case and a Thumb up if we want to shoot cats?

 

I'm going to inform the R.S.P.C.A. about this.

[Guest nafpie]

Even the best statistics (e.g. about failure rates) doesn't help the individual.

 

Even if 99.999999999% of all cameras are intact, YOU may get a lemon.

 

So don't care about statistics, buy one, make your own experiences and enjoy photography and life.

 

Stefan

 

 

---

PS: Yes, life is risky. The statistics say so.

[Nicoleica]

---

PS: Yes, life is risky. The statistics say so.

 

But statistics also indicate that very few complain afterwards.

[Guest nafpie]

But statistics also indicate that very few complain afterwards.

 

 

That brings us directly to the mother of all questions:

 

What is more risky? To live or to buy a Leica M9 camera?

 

Stefan

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[otto.f]

There would be a double no-risk if you're dead AND sell your M9.

But that would count for an M3 too