What is wrong with Leica?

[Xmas]

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Indeed - I guess I actually meant 'when recently have Leica attempted to be competitive in terms of price'

 

Ok if you dont accept that that example, you can still look at why.

 

Canon had a varietly of models during the interval, many did not sell well but Canon could build them cheaper partly cause they had invested in Demmings methods.

 

W. Edwards Deming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The Canon bits are normally easily interhangable, assembled by trained chimp, apologies to the skilled Ja assembly ladies...

 

Leitz only went to chimp building for the M4-2.

 

Currently Leica are competng with Cosina and Konica, for M and LTM lenses, they are at a disadvantage cause the Ja industry has pooled the Ja patents so these are free to Cosins or Konica but Leica would have to pay for any it employs.

 

The Zeiss lenses manufactured by Cosina also get free use of the Ja patent pool, they are dearer then the Cosina lenses partly cause of the Zeiss additional mark up on the OEM price, as well as nicer cardboard box and user manual. My guess on % would be more cynical than yours...

 

For your interest the metering of the shutter curtain/film like the M6, was also employed by Olympus for the OM4 (and the CLE shutter) but was not an Olympus patent, donno if the M6/M7 is inside the origonal Ja patent.

 

Noel

[mjh]

However they evidently did 'expect' to release it, and to me expectation is a bit stronger then aspiration. For example if I expect you to pay me back that £10 I leant you, it's a bit stronger than a hope that you will.

I may expect it to rain tomorrow, but obviously it is not for me to decide. My expectation to pay back a loan may be contingent on my expectation to come into the means to do so etc.. I think the word you are looking for is ‘intention’ – intention requires one to do something to actually make it happen.

 

I can recommend “Intention, Plans, and Practical Reason” (Amazon.com: Intention, Plans, and Practical Reason (9781575861920): Michael E. Bratman: Books), a book written by the philosopher Michael E. Bratman. Not only does he explain in some detail what distinguishes wanting something to happen, expecting it to happen, and intending to make it happen, but Bratman goes on to describe the conditions under which one has to revise and sometimes give up one’s intentions. Reading gets a little tedious about halfway through; IMO all the good parts are in the first half. But it is still a good read.

 

Btw, Leica didn’t decide against the R10 just because it would have been too expensive. The Noctilux, for example, is a ridiculously expensive lens; you can get an only slightly slower 50 mm lens at a much lower price. And yet it is a successful product. The problem with the R10 was that nothing Leica could have built in the timeframe envisaged would have been a match for the top-of-the-line offerings from Canon or Nikon. Yes, there might have been a few features of the planned R10 that some photographers would have loved, but all in all, cameras like the D3s and D3x or the EOS-1Ds Mark III and EOS-1D Mark IV define what a successful 35 mm DSLR should be in today’s market, and technologically, Leica just couldn’t compete. So they decided to work slowly but steadily on closing the technological gap in areas such as electronics, image processing, and AF, and at the same time trying to leverage what they do best.

[lct]

If Leica had launched the R10 as they expected, before they changed their mind, most Leica zealots including me but i cure myself would have been more than happy to buy one and would claim with the same enthusiasm that this was the only thing to do.

[Lord Fluff]

I think the word you are looking for is ‘intention’

 

Nope - 'expect' was their choice of word, not mine. I'll skip a semantic argument thanks, since this thread is weird enough already.

 

Clearly you're viewing 'competitive' in respect to high end AF 35mm DSLRs - not something Leica stand any chance with and I would never imagine they'd be daft enough to attempt. I'd figured they meant simply a digital R body or some such as I'd read that 'a way to use your R lenses is coming' a while back.

[andybarton]

The R solution, when it comes, will not be a R body. It will be a body that can take R lenses. Big difference.

[mjh]

Nope - 'expect' was their choice of word, not mine. I'll skip a semantic argument thanks, since this thread is weird enough already.

Then you will understand that ‘expect’ is a rather weak notion – not a commitment such as would be expressed by ‘promise’ or ‘intend’. Nobody can be held accountable for their expectations not coming true.

 

I'd figured they meant simply a digital R body or some such as I'd read that 'a way to use your R lenses is coming' a while back.

The R10 project, had it come to fruition, would have meant a rejuvenated R system with new AF lenses etc. – not just a new body. A new digital body wouldn’t have made any sense when the rest of the R system was still, essentially, dead. And the suggested ‘R solution’ won’t be an R body either, but, as Andy said, a body taking R lenses (and probably many others).

[hoppyman]

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And to add to Michael's information, there was this little unexpected situation called a global financial crisis which tended to affect business plans as well

 

.....I Btw, Leica didn’t decide against the R10 just because it would have been too expensive. The Noctilux, for example, is a ridiculously expensive lens; you can get an only slightly slower 50 mm lens at a much lower price. And yet it is a successful product. The problem with the R10 was that nothing Leica could have built in the timeframe envisaged would have been a match for the top-of-the-line offerings from Canon or Nikon. Yes, there might have been a few features of the planned R10 that some photographers would have loved, but all in all, cameras like the D3s and D3x or the EOS-1Ds Mark III and EOS-1D Mark IV define what a successful 35 mm DSLR should be in today’s market, and technologically, Leica just couldn’t compete. So they decided to work slowly but steadily on closing the technological gap in areas such as electronics, image processing, and AF, and at the same time trying to leverage what they do best.

[Lord Fluff]

Then you will understand that ‘expect’ is a rather weak notion – not a commitment such as would be expressed by ‘promise’ or ‘intend’. Nobody can be held accountable for their expectations not coming true.

 

The next time your boss tells you "I expect you to have this done by Friday", and you don't, be sure to explain how that was a 'rather weak notion'

 

Clearly I missed the bit about how this would be an all new system, competitive with Canon & Nikon on their home turf - a very optimistic notion at best, given that to truly compete they'd need to bring a massive range of lenses to market, not to mention a 10fps body, fast reliable AF, etc etc.

 

I still think though that set alongside the Titanium M9, a low production run digital SLR in R mount would have sold, even if the price was very high.

[farnz]

The next time your boss tells you "I expect you to have this done by Friday", and you don't, be sure to explain how that was a 'rather weak notion' .

Turn it round the other way and use it as Leica did: "I expect to have this done by Friday." and it reveals a different usage: one of forecast but not promise.

 

Pete.

[mjh]

The next time your boss tells you "I expect you to have this done by Friday", and you don't, be sure to explain how that was a 'rather weak notion'

Ah, the semantics and pragmatics of language, a fascinating subject … If you boss expects you to finish some task by a certain deadline, semantically this is just an expectation. Like I said, your boss couldn’t be held accountable should his expectation turn out to be wrong. You will be held accountable instead. Only that has nothing to do with the semantics of ‘expect’ and all with your position within the hierarchy.

[dhsimmonds]

Leica are rather better than Morgan Cars who have a two year waiting list for a new car. This family owned business for niche sports cars have often been the subject of business consultant guru's who advise on what should be done to increase business and reduce production lead times....they just don't get it........it's this that probably helps provide this quality marque with the "must have at any cost or ever how long I wait" mystique that only happens over a very long period of continuous history. They survive and prosper!

 

A marketing man's dream but not the salesman's!

 

Whilst cameras and sports cars cannot be compared, I can see some strategic business similarities.

[Xmas]

I still think though that set alongside the Titanium M9, a low production run digital SLR in R mount would have sold, even if the price was very high.

 

Apples and oranges

 

Suggest a digital R needs to sell better then the M9, or Leica would cease to exist, if it did sell a Digital R more then the M9, you could them make a low volume Ti version.

 

Please send your CV to Leica...

 

Noel