Eikonphoto Posted January 22, 2007 Share #1 Posted January 22, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am considering purchasing the above color temp meter and wondered if anyone is currently using this, and if so - their thoughts. Here is why it is under consideration. My circumstances : I am shooting in every mix of lighting, mostly with Nikon D2X's. I work with 2 assistants at any given time. That means there is a D200, a D70 - sometimes a Canon Mark ll - and now of course, the M8. We shoot jpeg, and that will not be changing. Once the shoot is complete, these images are merged by capture time. My D2x"s using exposdic's give an accurate (although more time consuming than I like) color temp to work with. Getting color consistency from the other cameras is proving much more difficult - the Canon particularly (not knocking Canon, just a radically different take on color). As we all know the M8 performs the worst of any of those cameras in it's AWB. In some of those mixed indoor situations, I am thinking it may be possible to take a color temp reading and have my assistants set to that color temp and therefore minimize the frequently ludicrous AWB/brand/model/ differences to some extent. My goal is to minimize the post processing and move towards a very consistent look between cameras. Thanks for your thoughts folks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 Hi Eikonphoto, Take a look here Gossen Color-Pro 3F - anyone using this color meter?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mike prevette Posted January 22, 2007 Share #2 Posted January 22, 2007 I've used the minolta one for years. I think it's out of production now, but it's spot on for my motion picture work. _mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eikonphoto Posted January 22, 2007 Author Share #3 Posted January 22, 2007 Is that the lllF Minolta? There's several of those on Ebay right now ..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike prevette Posted January 22, 2007 Share #4 Posted January 22, 2007 yup Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 22, 2007 Share #5 Posted January 22, 2007 Karen, I use the Gossen Colormaster 3F, bought specifically because the M8's AWB is so bad. Like you, I also use a D2x and find it handles WB pretty well, especially with its facilities for standard WB presets and user profiles. I don't often use WB bracketing though! Compared to the D2x, the M8 is not good and I find much the best way to get accurate WB on JPEG is to use a colour meter and dial in the ambient light temperature. The Gossen is geared towards colour correction back to defined film standards through the use of green/magenta colour correction filters, but I just use the colour temperature reading from it and dial in the number. For me, it's one way of achieveing satisfactory WB with the M8 as it stands. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eikonphoto Posted January 22, 2007 Author Share #6 Posted January 22, 2007 Mark Thanks ..... yes, I believe dailing in the color temp and starting off with a good consistent set of files is my way to go. Now I need to figure out whether to go with the older technology of the Minolta lll or the Gossen color pro 3f, which I have yet to get any feedback about. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike prevette Posted January 22, 2007 Share #7 Posted January 22, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think the biggest deal is where you can get them callibrated. There is a guy in LA that does all my minolta light/color meters. He's basicly going to be in business for a long time because all the film guys use either Minolta's or Spectra's. I'm not sure about who is callibrating Gossins. I get mine done every two years. _mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 23, 2007 Share #8 Posted January 23, 2007 My Gossen has just come back from calibration in Germany - same sort of response times to Leica. US distributor is in Encinitas, CA. Not clear to me whether Minolta meters are still available new. I'm wondering whether they were a casualty when Konica Minolta off-loaded to Sony. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted January 23, 2007 Share #9 Posted January 23, 2007 Not clear to me whether Minolta meters are still available new. I'm wondering whether they were a casualty when Konica Minolta off-loaded to Sony. Mark-- Probably so. I had just bought a Minolta slide copier when the company was taken over. Took almost three months to find out that no-one could fix it, that it couldn't be replaced because it was out of production, and that Sony would refund my purchase price. Sad that the most interesting parts of Minolta's production (like the meters) seem to have fallen before the mass-production juggernaut. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbretteville Posted January 23, 2007 Share #10 Posted January 23, 2007 Is that the lllF Minolta? There's several of those on Ebay right now ..... Karen, A word of warning: The Minolta IIIFs I see on eBay now are all Auto Meter IIIF, not Color Meter IIIF. Different products that looks almost identical. - Carl Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnelson Posted January 23, 2007 Share #11 Posted January 23, 2007 Mike... Do you have the contact information for the guy in LA who calibrates the Minolta color meters? Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted January 23, 2007 Share #12 Posted January 23, 2007 Karen, Welcome to the forum. Are you shooting RAW? If so, an alternate approach would be to shoot a frame with each camera that includes a WhiBal card and then set the WB by sampling that card in RAW conversion and then applying that setting to all the other frames made by the same camera in the same lighting. With practice it's quite fast. My wife and I sometimes do shoots with 3-4 different cameras and WB, using this method, ends up being quite consistent in the final set. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eikonphoto Posted January 23, 2007 Author Share #13 Posted January 23, 2007 Hi Sean Thanks for the welcome. I don't typically shoot raw for most events, which is why the color meter has appeal. Sean I am afraid raw is not a viable workflow for the kind of volume we create. In addition, it only takes one assistant to forget to white balance and it stuffs up the consistency. Also, Carl I really appreciate the heads up about the differences in the Minolta meters, and looking alike etc. I like Minolta meters, prefer sekonic, but don't think they make a color meter. I am adverse to technology that is no longer supported like Minolta (apart from the hero in Ca who will indeed be busy for a long long time. I will keep researching, but am leaning towards the color-pro 3f. Cheers Karen Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemeng Posted January 23, 2007 Share #14 Posted January 23, 2007 Er Karen, all DSLRs effectively have colour meters built into them. Get yourself a White Balance Card (or use the reverse side of a Kodak Grey Card). Gretag Macbeth ColorChecker White Balance Card These things are calibrated to give a pure white reflectance. Point your camera at the card, press the custom WB button and... you're done. While shooting, train your assistants to occasionally check the camera's LCD to keep an eye on the colour mix. If things get out of whack, then use the card again to do another custom WB. It only takes few seconds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbretteville Posted January 23, 2007 Share #15 Posted January 23, 2007 Karen, You're welcome. Buying gear just to find out it wasn't the right kind is annoyng, especially on eBay... Whibal is a great alternative to the Gretag, works for raw and jpeg workflows and is low cost. There is even a free plugin for PS. Instructional videos are availeble on the site so you can see how it works before you buy it. WhiBal Gray Card for Digital Photo White Balance - RAW Workflow - Carl Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzav Posted January 23, 2007 Share #16 Posted January 23, 2007 The Minolta Color Meter IIIF is the workhorse of studio photographers who needed spot-on color balance of their lighting for shooting chromes. Any pro studio shooter with some experience will tell you that 3200K type B lights are rarely 3200K, and studio flash rarely matches daylight and can vary from under 5000K to over 6500K. In fact, the color quality of both incandescent and flash will change with use as the bulbs/tubes age. The use of gray cards or white cards has to be approached very carefully when using them to set white balance in camera or in post processing. The older Kodak Gray Cards (made by Kodak) were not overly sensitive to UV like the current (made by Tiffen under license from Kodak) cards. These new cards use optical brighteners causing the targets (gray and white) to fluoresce under UV light. If you place the old and new cards side by side under UV light in the dark, the Tiffen version lights right up, while the Kodak reamains almost black. This condition is very common in most "18% gray" cards available today. Macbeth products have proven to be spectrally neutral, making them excellent reference standards. One inexpensive neutral gray card is produced by Douglas Photographic (http://www.photo-software.com/greycard.htm); it will fluoresce on its white side but is perfectly neutral on the gray side. Sekonic also makes a much more sophisticated although expensive test target that is spectrally neutral. The Sekonic target was developed for use with their new L-758 meter that can be calibrated to a camera's dynamic range. When I run camera tests and calibrations, I make sure that the test standards are absolurely spectrally neutral using densitometer and spectrophotometer readings so the results are not skewed. This attention to detail helps the accurate setting of white balance as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eikonphoto Posted January 23, 2007 Author Share #17 Posted January 23, 2007 Hi Andrew ER .. Yes indeed all DSLR's do have color meters built in, and some of those are better than others.(The M8 has the worst WB I have seen. My first digital slr in 1998 had better ) but rarely do they agree even within the same brand of camera. The color reproduction of a canon is very very different from a Nikon. The D2X is has different color rendition than the D70s. I also cannot expect (and nor would I want) to have my assistants bring in their camera's so that I can build a profile for each camera. We shoot jpeg not raw. My question was based on the need for color consistency amongst a set of diffferent cameras. I have had assistants shooting grey cards, I myself use an expodisc very effectively. However, in a given lighting condition, it would be helpful to tell my assistants to move to a specific color temperature. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemeng Posted January 23, 2007 Share #18 Posted January 23, 2007 ... My question was based on the need for color consistency amongst a set of diffferent cameras ... in a given lighting condition, it would be helpful to tell my assistants to move to a specific color temperature. Unfortunately this won't work because different cameras have inconsistent ideas of just what (say) 3250K means. :?( Thus... Quick & dirty = white card + custom white balance. More accurate colour balance = rough WB during the shoot + grey-step calibration card (which contains a gradient of grey panels from 0% to ~ 100%) + RAW + fine adjust during RAW conversion. Super-duper accurate = CC filters + the above. The last approach is what I use for shooting QTVRs, which have to cope with all the light sources in a 180x360 degree space. AFAIK there ain't no magic bullet here :?) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eikonphoto Posted January 23, 2007 Author Share #19 Posted January 23, 2007 Andrew Thanks for your help. I am not shooting raw. Nor am I expecting a magic bullet. Nor am I in the belief that my assistants, or myself will always remember to keep custom white balancing. I just want to get the perameters a little closer. So that whilst we might not be exactly on the same sentence of the same page - we are at least on the same chapter. Thanks again, Karen Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted January 23, 2007 Share #20 Posted January 23, 2007 The Minolta Color Meter IIIF is the workhorse of studio photographers who needed spot-on color balance of their lighting for shooting chromes. Any pro studio shooter with some experience will tell you that 3200K type B lights are rarely 3200K, and studio flash rarely matches daylight and can vary from under 5000K to over 6500K. In fact, the color quality of both incandescent and flash will change with use as the bulbs/tubes age. The use of gray cards or white cards has to be approached very carefully when using them to set white balance in camera or in post processing. The older Kodak Gray Cards (made by Kodak) were not overly sensitive to UV like the current (made by Tiffen under license from Kodak) cards. These new cards use optical brighteners causing the targets (gray and white) to fluoresce under UV light. If you place the old and new cards side by side under UV light in the dark, the Tiffen version lights right up, while the Kodak reamains almost...snip. That's why many of us recommend WhiBal. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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