Why are certain lenses not selling well while others nowhere to be found?

[AGeoJO]

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In general, newer ASPH lenses sell like hot cakes and are not readily available. Even the new Noctilux f/0.95 with a lofty price tag of almost $11K is hard to find. On the other hand there are newer lenses that do not sell well. Yes, the less expensive line of the Summarits and also two fairly new ultra wide angle lenses, the 18mm f/3.8 Super Elmar and to a certain degree, even the WATE. While I understand that the pricing of the Summarits is designed to lure new Leica users but the 18mm SE and WATE are not, correct? Are we, Leica users, more obsessed with the fast speed of their lenses of choice and are willing to cough up significantly more money to still our appetite for fast lenses? Apparently so, since the 21mm Summilux ASPH is not available anywhere. Any thought?

 

Thanks,

Joshua

[JWW]

The most popular lenses will likely be the ones most useful on the M9. Therefore the 35 and 50mm are hard to find in stock. Also most folks that can buy a M9 probably will be able to justify the more expensive fast lenses. There's also the consideration that buying a more popular but more expensive faster lens may turn out better at resale time.

[Humood]

according to a leica dealer, all Leica lenses are made in batches, so if a certain batch is sold, he has to wait until Leica produce a new batch! (that is after they produce many other batches of other lenses!!)

 

also, another dealer told me that the noctilux f.95 is made "undergound" and that 60% of the production does NOT pass the final test! if this is true, then my chance of getting my hands on one is very slim!

[drdannn]

The desire for fast lenses is fine. I do not put down the Summarit or Elmarit. After all, the S2 uses Summarit glass. If I am using a 35 Summarit or a 28 Elmarit, I am not afraid to shoot at ISO 640 if I need to. Most shots, even night, can be shot at ISO 320. I like that these lenses are lighter and more compact than the faster lenses; one of the reasons I like the M system ( compact and goes everywhere). I do have a 35 Summicron, but only because it is virtually the same size as the Summarit ( E39 ).

[adan]

"In general, newer ASPH lenses sell like hot cakes and are not readily available."

 

I'm not sure both parts of this statement are correct. Many lenses are not available, but that may because the supply of hotcakes was limited to begin with, not because the demand is all that high.

 

For example, Leica may have predicted the demand for 21 f/1.4s at 800 lenses a year and 50 f/0.95s at 500. And demand for 50 f/2 lenses at 4000 per year. If the actual sales demand is 1000, 900 and 3500, there will be a shortage of 21 f/1.4s and 50 Noctiluxes, and a surplus of 50 f/2 lenses, even though it is the 50 f/2s that are "selling like hotcakes."

 

In addition to predicted demand, new lenses go through teething problems as production is ramped up (note humood's mention of the high rejection rate for the Noctilux, rumor or not) - so Leica may not even be able to meet their OWN quota, much less the real demand.

 

So it may be "supply-side" economics.

 

As to the Summarits, their prices are rather high from my point of view. If I can get a used 50 'cron for $700 (let alone a 3rd-party lens for even less) why would I pay double that for a half-stop less speed?

 

"Are we, Leica users, more obsessed with the fast speed...? "

 

Given the relative weakness of the Leica/Kodak CCD in low light, this is likely. All other things being equal, I would have f/1.4 lenses in all focal lengths. All other things NOT being equal (performance, focus-ability, price, size) I have one (35mm) and get by with f/2 or f/2.8 for the others.

 

That could be a generational thing, too. I got started in photography when the "kit lens" with any SLR was a 50mm f/1.4 (f/1.8 was the budget option). F/2.8 was considered dismally slow until one got down to 28mm or up to over 105mm.

 

As to the 18mm and WATE - I love superwides, but they are not mainstream for most people. And f/3.8-4 can be a drawback. While they work fine in general on the M9 or film, their real target was for use with the cropped M8, and that market is now limited.

[Xmas]

Hi

 

I am advised by a usually reliable source that Leica diverted staff (from lens production) and recruited and have been training new persons to address the M9 backlog. So lenses with a lower demand may still be stock items, new lenses or high demand lenses may need an order with dealer.

 

Your dealer should know what delivery he has been promised.

 

Noel

[Jeff S]

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As to the Summarits, their prices are rather high from my point of view. If I can get a used 50 'cron for $700 (let alone a 3rd-party lens for even less) why would I pay double that for a half-stop less speed?

 

This may be a reason why the Summarits haven't sold well, but one could turn this question around and ask why would someone spend almost three times as much to get a new Summicron for only one half stop more speed than a new Summarit. Apples to apples. I think the issue is that many folks think the Summarits are inferior, although tests show otherwise....Summarit range. I also think Leica 'under-markets' this line, perhaps not to cannibalize Summicron sales.

 

That's too bad since Leica would be better served by folks buying new versus used gear. I happen to own Summicrons and a Summilux, but if I were just starting out, I wouldn't hesitate to consider a Summarit. But, I prefer buying new with warranty.

 

Jeff

[adan]

Which Summicron (new) is "almost three times" the price of a Summarit (new) in the same focal length?

 

Prices ex B&H web pages today, U.S. dollars

 

35mm - 1695 vs 2999 = 1.76x

50mm - 1395 vs 1995 = 1.43x

75mm - 1695 vs 3995 = 2x

90mm - 1695 vs 3700 = 2.17x

 

Anyone else here think 2.17 or 1.43 is "almost" 3? (Hey, its only an error of 40% or more.)

 

I'd agree that the Summarits are good lenses if one doesn't need something faster or (in the case of the 75) closer focusing. And that Leica could go further in marketing them (along with practically all their other products).

[jacarape]

Hi Joshua-

 

Out of curiosity I watch the prices of 75/1.4s. I'm amazed, a Ver.1 just sold on the bay for $3200, they seem to collect bids as soon as they're listed. There are some listed for crazy prices that don't sell. But in two years the 75 and 35 ASPH Luxes have really "gone missing". There are two more Ver.1s 75s on the bay that are over $2300 in just a few days. Not long ago that was what Keh sold them for.

 

Also Keh hasn't had a Noct 1.0 in ages, (two years or so ago they had as many as four or five listed with the lowest being $3500), 35/1.4 ASPH for awhile and very few 75s and they disappear fast.

 

Anyway, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the planned lens productions runs are sold out before the run starts.

[Jeff S]

Which Summicron (new) is "almost three times" the price of a Summarit (new) in the same focal length?

 

You misunderstood, Andy (and perhaps my wording was awkward). I think I passed math, so your sarcasm is unwarranted. I was using your example where you asked why someone would pay double for a Summarit when they could buy a $700 used Summicron. So I turned it around and asked why somebody would pay almost triple for new Summicron instead of a $700 used Summicron ($2000 versus $700) when they could just get a Summarit. In other words, I didn't think it was a fair question, since used lenses are almost always more attractive than new lenses, whether Summarits or Summicrons, if cost is the primary concern.

 

Instead, I suggested alternative reason for why people aren't buying new Summarits (rather than new Summicrons)...apples to apples.

 

Jeff

[NZDavid]

Why? Because Leica is a small company. Because these are specialized products that take time to produce. Because supply and demand is not always an easy equation. Be patient! Waiting times for other high-end products can be a lot longer.

[adan]

OK, Jeff. I take your intended point.

 

Leaving aside apples-to-whatever comparisons, I just get real queasy thinking of paying more than $100 (yep, 2 zeroes) for a 35 or 50 f/2.5 lens - new, used, Leica, Minolta, whatever. It may be the generational thing I mentioned earlier - I grew up in an era when f/1.4 was the norm and f/2.5 was what one got on the bargain-basement $40 versions of Canonet/Petri consumer cameras.

[k-hawinkler]

Hi Joshua-

 

Out of curiosity I watch the prices of 75/1.4s. I'm amazed, a Ver.1 just sold on the bay for $3200, they seem to collect bids as soon as they're listed. There are some listed for crazy prices that don't sell. But in two years the 75 and 35 ASPH Luxes have really "gone missing". There are two more Ver.1s 75s on the bay that are over $2300 in just a few days. Not long ago that was what Keh sold them for.

 

Also Keh hasn't had a Noct 1.0 in ages, (two years or so ago they had as many as four or five listed with the lowest being $3500), 35/1.4 ASPH for awhile and very few 75s and they disappear fast.

 

Anyway, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the planned lens productions runs are sold out before the run starts.

 

 

While waiting for my M9 to show up (it finally did after Christmas 2009) I decided to buy a number of lenses in the October - December 2009 time frame from KEH. So that's just a little bit over a year ago.

 

My observations are similar. Back then one could get almost every type of Leica lens used from KEH in EX or LN condition, except the 50 Summilux ASPH and maybe 2 or 3 others. At one time they had 5 Noct 1.0 listed. There were a few WATE and MATE, 35 Summilux, and a large collection of Summicrons, Elmarits, and Elmars. They also had a pretty good selection of Visoflex gear.

 

In contrast today, their offering is pretty minimal and mostly of lower quality BGN or UG. However, occasionally even today a gem shows up like the WATE with Finder for $4,299.00 in EX+ condition, whereas a year ago one in LN condition was $3,799.00, including the Frankenfinder.

 

My view is that the M9 has been so successful that it pretty much dried up KEH's used Leica lens business or drove it to Ebay. So, naturally even more folks are forced to buy new and wait for the lenses to become available.

[earleygallery]

Personally I think part of the reason for the apparent lower sales of Summarits is the 'big boys toys' factor.

 

People like to have the best, hey look I've got a new Noctilux. They don't really need it for photos of the cat after all.

 

I'm sure some would be embarrassed to think that their peers would look down on them for settling for the 'cheaper' Summarit lens and not buying a 'Cron or 'Lux.

 

How many people buying 4X4's drive off road regularly? How many people wearing divers watches actually use them to go diving?

 

Leica producing 'economy' gear is rather like Range Rover making a 2WD version, or Ferrari putting a 1.6 engine in one of their cars. It might actually be fine for a lot of customers real use, but few will buy them. They might live in a city, but they like to know that the car they're driving could go up a mountain, or get to 100mph in 6 seconds.

[AGeoJO]

Thank you all of you for posting your thought on this aspect. I have to agree with the notion that James (earleygallery) made, the big boy's factor definitely plays a role here. In addition, I can't help but noticing that a few folks that I know and that I bumped into in photography outings/trips, are more middle age male. As a result of that I am almost convinced that the average age of Leica user is higher than the average age of let's say Canon or Nikon users. Nothing scientific of course but more an observation on my part. Frankly, I am in the babyboomer age group myself... .

 

As k-hawinkler, mentioned, the success of the digital M cameras, well, mostly the success of the M9 definitely contributes to the shortness in supply (read: premium prices) of Leica lenses, especially the new and esoteric lenses. We want to create images that look different than typical images taken with DSLR and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

I also heard about Leica production of lenses in batches, as Humood and Noel mentioned. I understood adan's point about the distribution in production of various lenses. I hope that Leica recognizes the situation and would put more emphasis in the production of such lenses to meet the increased demand. It simply doesn't make sense to produce Summarits vs. Summiluxes in the same ratio as before.

 

If it is true that approximately 60% of the Noctiluxes would be rejected during the production, per Humood, then it explains a part of the short supply. In my view, another factor leading to the short supply of the Noctilux can be explained by speculation. Apparently, people buy them with the intention of upselling on that auction site for easily $1,500 to $2,000 more than the current MSRP. I don't want to go into guessing how much the margin of Leica dealers on the Nocti but with the additional upcharge, the profit is not bad.

 

It is very interesting to hear what folks think about the situation.

 

Again, thank you for your input,

Joshua

[Jeff S]

Personally I think part of the reason for the apparent lower sales of Summarits is the 'big boys toys' factor.

 

Exactly. In other posts, I've explained the issue as one of arrogance (big-boy mentality) and/or ignorance (as I mentioned earlier in this thread). Plus, the marketing issues.

 

In some cases, there might be 'informed logic' at work, e.g., the Summarits are actually too slow for someone's needs, etc...but most often I think there are other factors at play.

 

Jeff

[Jeff S]

I just get real queasy thinking of paying more than $100 (yep, 2 zeroes) for a 35 or 50 f/2.5 lens - new, used, Leica, Minolta, whatever. It may be the generational thing...

 

I'd like to know where you shop to avoid this queasy feeling nowadays.

 

BTW, I think we're probably of the same generation. When I mowed lawns as a kid, I used to make sure I had a quarter in my pocket to fill my gallon gas container.

 

Jeff

[Xmas]

Hi

 

Well the used price of a CV slow LTM is 150 GBP, got my 28mm f/3.5 for 150GBP not much difference between it and the Elmarit ASPH.

 

When I was cutting grass for a living (well pocket money) you had to push the mower, Suez made (gas) difficult anyway.

 

The supply and demand situation will right itself soon. E.g.Cosina think there is no market for the 35mm f/1.2...

 

Noel

[Jeff S]

Yep, I used a push mower on occasion back then also.

 

Jeff

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[luigi bertolotti]

Reading such a thread, I think that for many of us, the best present that Leica could give to this forum would be to provide a full disclosure of their detailed figures about lenses : produced/sold to channel/sold to end users , with times and detail by model... an exciting bunch of data to scrutinize and discussing about....

In general I think that for the Company, the biz of lenses is rather a safe play, which can give them a very good margin : after all..

1) How many people would step back from the decision to buy a M9, supposed ready available, for the reason that a certain lens is not available together with the camera ? Even if in the (not frequent) case of a completely NEW customer, he has by definition the possibility to have AT ONCE some lens (Leica or not) : brand new lenses can wait..

2) How many people with some Leica camera(s) would step back from the decision to buy a new lens for the reason that there is a long time to wait ? In this sense, the used/like new market is their worst competitor : I am (time to time) thinking that I would like to have a new 50... given that my most recent one is dated 1963 I'm well disposed to wait a decent time for, say, a new Lux asph... but if the dealer should tell me: "6 months ! No less by sure !" I could reason : "OK.. but 7 months is not so more... I can spend a month chasing for a like new...".