Uh Oh...Me Too

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Steven

 

Dale is quite responsive, but their email are not good. they dont have their own for individuals at the company and David often doesnt check when on the road.

 

Better to call and ask for David directly. He will help.

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[atufte]

This is scary, almost sounds like we all need a backup M8, because it's seem's that way to many M8's breaking down at the moment... (i'm crossing my fingers...)

[hammam]

I am sorry, guys, I try to remain as positive as possible with this whole M8 thing, but while I'm still awaiting mine (two months now), not a day passes without its share of NEW problems. I've had countless digital cameras and DSLRs from Canon, Olympus, Fuji, almost all top of the line Nikons (D100, D1X, D2X, D200...) but I've never, ever, experimented problems such as these. Battery, switch, circuit, contact...Not once. And this on top of all the rest. Now, we'd need a backup M8? Heck, I can hardly afford the first one, and I make lots of sacrifices for it, and that's what I risk ending up with?

 

Tomorrow, somebody will post a fantastic picture, and I'll think «Hey, this M8 is really a great camera.» The next day, somebody will announce their sensor has grilled, or something, and I'll be depressed again. And so on... It is really tying knots in my stomach.

 

I admire your patience and understanding, guys, but I'm not up to par in that respect.

 

So, I wanted to ask, has anyone tried to just get a f...g REFUND from Leica?

[tom0511]

I am sorry, guys, I try to remain as positive as possible with this whole M8 thing, but while I'm still awaiting mine, not a day passes without its share of NEW problems. I've had countless digital cameras and DSLRs from Canon, Olympus, Fuji, almost all top of the line Nikons (D100, D1X, D2X, D200...) but I've never, ever, experimented problems such as these. Not once. And this on top of all the rest. It is really tying knots in my stomach. Now, we'd need a backup M8? Heck, I can hardly afford the first one, and I make lots of sacrifices for it, and that's I risk ending up with?

 

So, I wanted to ask, has anyone tried to just get a f...g REFUND from Leica?

 

There have been dead d2x, 1d etc. etc.

The d200 I bought was defect from the first minute (battery was got empty after some hours even when the camera was off). Got an exchange and now it works.

 

It seems the M8 does not have the same "reliability advantage" as a Leica M6 or MP over other cameras, but it still gives the "image advantage" IMO.

 

If you look at cars its easy to understand that the more electronics you include the bigger is the chance that something dies.

 

I have been lucky with my M8 so far (received my sample after they had allready included the fixes and so far not one problem with it.

However I understand that

problems can occur, just as they can occur with my other cameras.

cheers, tom

[Guest magyarman]

Why people act surprising when is M8 got many problems? Who buying this camera in start has to now is gonna be big trable. Plenty MP and M7 got trable even they very small teknologic compares M8 and also is some years already make it. Mabe one ora two years more will be M8 not so many broking oba gonna never be trustable. I hold always 2 ora 3 Leicas becaus is always one make trable something. Differents Canon ora Nikon can hold chip one for behind using, oba M8 is only one M8 and so spense hold two. Also is possible all two is gonna broke!

[larry]

It's easy to become disillusioned about the M8 if you only pay attention to the problems reported in the forum. We've seen a couple of dozen accounts of cameras dying, but that's not necessarily a fair representation of the cameras now in service. At this point the percentage of bad cameras is anyone's guess (except Leica's). However, I don't think it's unfair to say that even a few dozen dead cameras (out of a few thousand?) is an excessive defective rate for a product like this.

 

My concern at this point is whether the problems are caused by engineering flaws, poor quality control, or a combination of the two. For Leica's sake and all the M8 owners, I'm hoping it's only quality control. Even so, confidence in the camera's reliability has clearly suffered. Let's hope Leica can sort this out.

 

Larry

[Cruewell]

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Like Olivier, I am geting nervous about the M8's reliablility -to put it mildly. Unlike him, I was not obliged to put down a deposit for it, so I can back out any time. I can live with the IR issue, since I shoot mostly with B&W in mind, but like Olivier says, every week I learn of a new problem to add to the previous ones, and a 5k US dollar camera dying in my hands for no apparent reason is no joke.

 

Several people in this forum are professional photographers, have spent astronomical sums of money in professional cameras, and I assume are used to handling this kind of trouble with Leica or other manufacturers, so here are a few questions for whoever may have an answer:

 

How can Leica fix these problems so when we buy an M8 we know it's finally trouble free? Will people who have bought earlier production models remain with an unreliable camera for life? Can such serious issues be fixed with software updates? Without replacing the camera for a newer model? And finally, if I am in no rush, wouldn't it be wiser to wait for a M9 or later version of the M8 that is 100% trouble free?

[khanosu]

Barring a few exceptions almost all these failures have the same signature, which is good since it points to probably just one component (software or hardware) failing somewhere that can be identified and fixed. Looks more like a logic/switching/design problem than a quality control problem. So far I have had none of these issues with my M8 but will not be surprised if the particular issue mentioned in this thread strikes my M8 also.

 

Furrukh

[AlanG]

Sean Reid mentioned static electricty. I'd explore this possibility more as I've had similar lockups with my original Canon 1Ds due to static discharge. Here is the scenario:

 

The camera has to be on a tripod in a carpeted room in the winter time when the air is dry. When I step away from the camera and walk a little and then touch it or the tripod, there will be a static discharge that often locks up the camera. The camera remains on but no controls will function. If I remove the battery and reinstall it, the camera will work again. But usually it gets too frustrating to use it so I switch bodies to a newer model that isn't sensitive to the problem. I don't know if this is common with the 1Ds as I doubt if that many photographers run into the scenario that causes it. Whereas I photograph home interiors very often.

 

It could be that the M8 is locking up due to static, while removing the battery does not fully reset it.

 

This is just a guess on my part, but it should be pretty easy to duplicate a high static situation this time of year and see if that is the cause.

[Hans Roggen]

Barring a few exceptions almost all these failures have the same signature, which is good since it points to probably just one component (software or hardware) failing somewhere that can be identified and fixed. Looks more like a logic/switching/design problem than a quality control problem. So far I have had none of these issues with my M8 but will not be surprised if the particular issue mentioned in this thread strikes my M8 also.

 

Furrukh

 

Well, not all. Mine has another problem.

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/14161-so-mine-broke-down-too.html

 

Hans

[sean_reid]

Sean, have you tried cleaning the contacts on the battery and the opposite ones in the camera? It sounds from comments here like that might be the problem.

 

They're fine. I wish it were that simple.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[reddawn]

There have been dead d2x, 1d etc. etc.

The d200 I bought was defect from the first minute (battery was got empty after some hours even when the camera was off). Got an exchange and now it works.

 

It's true that defects do appear with other brands, but I do not remember a rash of d200s dying in owners' hands. The M8 failure rate is quite alarming even if it's only based on postings in this forum, and worrying for a company the size of Leica.

 

It seems the M8 does not have the same "reliability advantage" as a Leica M6 or MP over other cameras, but it still gives the "image advantage" IMO.

 

But a dead camera has no advantage whatsoever. Let's hope Leica fixes all the problems soon. I myself am waiting for the 1.10 firmware version of the M8 coming February before getting one!

[sean_reid]

I am not sure if I experienced the same thing, but last night my M8 acted strange -- it was one of the original batches, but I upgraded firmware to 1.09. I was shooting with a coded 28mm elmarit. I was on 2500 iso. I had been shooting all night flawlessly, and I switched the camera off for a bit, and then back on. everything turned on - the monitor was accesible and lit, and I could change settigns in the SET menu (not the Menu, menu). When I went to trip the shutter nothing. I tried to turn the camera off, nothing, everything stayed on - like it was frozen. I tried everythign conceivable. Evetually, I pulled the battery and it reset. I have had this experience now 2 times.

 

That's the same set of symptoms but mine didn't come back to life.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[canlogic]

I am sorry, guys, I try to remain as positive as possible with this whole M8 thing, but while I'm still awaiting mine (two months now), not a day passes without its share of NEW problems. I've had countless digital cameras and DSLRs from Canon, Olympus, Fuji, almost all top of the line Nikons (D100, D1X, D2X, D200...) but I've never, ever, experimented problems such as these. Battery, switch, circuit, contact...Not once. ?

 

Well you have been lucky, I have made more trips to Canon up on Cote de Liesse than I care to think about.

 

By the way I haven't had one problem with my M8 yet. It just went back to Solms for the fix and I hope it doesn't come back with issues.

[khanosu]

Well, not all. Mine has another problem.

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/14161-so-mine-broke-down-too.html

 

Hans

 

I understand Hans. Sorry to hear about your problem. Yours is a different (but serious) problem. I was including your problem in the exceptions. The cause of your problem is definitely different form the problem that a larger than expected number of M8s are suffering form (i.e. the one reported by others and Sean in this thread).

 

Best of luck to you in having your camera fixed.

 

Furrukh

[sean_reid]

There have been dead d2x, 1d etc. etc.

The d200 I bought was defect from the first minute (battery was got empty after some hours even when the camera was off). Got an exchange and now it works.

 

It seems the M8 does not have the same "reliability advantage" as a Leica M6 or MP over other cameras, but it still gives the "image advantage" IMO.

 

If you look at cars its easy to understand that the more electronics you include the bigger is the chance that something dies.

 

I have been lucky with my M8 so far (received my sample after they had allready included the fixes and so far not one problem with it.

However I understand that

problems can occur, just as they can occur with my other cameras.

cheers, tom

 

I doesn't have the same reliability yet. I think it will become more reliable as Leica become more and more experienced in the design and production of digital cameras. I don't think they're intentionally trying to make us beta testers for the M8 (as some have suggested previously on this forum) but rather that they are doing the best they can and learning as they go. I know that some don't like hearing that said of such a prestigious company but that's the reality. They do have very high standards but digital is still pretty new to this very small company.

 

I understand that some photographers do not want to be early adopters of the M8 specifically because of the various teething problems and they should probably hang back for now. My own position, as I've written, is that I would much rather have an M8 with teething problems than no M8 at all. I was disappointed that the camera failed but of course any professional needs to keep backup equipment and if one needs to use it so be it.

 

My position is a little unusual in that I'm in the midst of doing a lot of M8 lens testing for articles. So my M8 backup really needs to be another M8. But for assignments, I can certainly switch to my R-D1 or one of our Canon DSLRs. I like the M8 better but the others will get the job done.

 

I may be in a very small minority here in that I do not expect any of my equipment to be perfect, no matter how much it costs (and some of it has cost much more than the M8). I expect it to work for the tasks I give it and, if it fails, I expect excellent support from the manufacturer. I continue to have faith in Leica and I know, from many conversations with them, they are working hard to sort out whatever problems arise with the M8. That's not a Leica apologist position, per se, it is how I actually feel and see things.

 

To be honest, as I was telling my wife (also a photographer) last night, when my M8 failed I didn't feel sorry for me, I felt sorry for Leica because I have to write about what I experience with any production camera or lens, the good and the bad (contrary to what some conspiracy theorists unfortunately continue to suggest in PMs to me, etc). I can always work with another camera to get an assignment done so its not the end of the world for me.But Leica has now got one more thing to sort out with this wonderful but sometimes troubled camera.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[andym911]

As you may recall I stopped my order at the last minute and invested in 5D for a digital set up even though I was desperate for the M8.(emotionally)

Looking now at these threads just confirms my suspicions of December that the camera is not ready for Pro use.Pro use means dependability and consistency.

The most disturbing matter for actual users or potential buyers I see as I follow these threads, is the constant NEW problems that keep rearing their heads.

On top of that such hardware QC issues like rangefinder alignment really make me believe that Leica have bitten off more than they can chew.

I believe that Leica should stop shipping this product, take the time to solve ALL issues and relaunch as Mk2 version in an appropriate time frame.

How things are currently going they will be in a constant state of catch up, which cannot be good for them or their customers.

Just my thoughts as an analog Leica M fan and user.

 

andy

[Riley]

Andy

thats a plan likely to capsize Leica, therefore benefitting whom ?

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[sean_reid]

Sean Reid mentioned static electricty.

 

1) I'd explore this possibility more as I've had similar lockups with my original Canon 1Ds due to static discharge. Here is the scenario:

 

2) The camera has to be on a tripod in a carpeted room in the winter time when the air is dry.

 

3) When I step away from the camera and walk a little and then touch it or the tripod, there will be a static discharge that often locks up the camera. The camera remains on but no controls will function. If I remove the battery and reinstall it, the camera will work again. But usually it gets too frustrating to use it so I switch bodies to a newer model that isn't sensitive to the problem. I don't know if this is common with the 1Ds as I doubt if that many photographers run into the scenario that causes it. Whereas I photograph home interiors very often.

 

It could be that the M8 is locking up due to static, while removing the battery does not fully reset it.

 

This is just a guess on my part, but it should be pretty easy to duplicate a high static situation this time of year and see if that is the cause.

 

1) Yes, I'm very curious about this aspect.

 

2) That was the scenario for me (a pub in an inn).

 

3) I do think there could be something to this. The other M8 I'm working with also locked up like this during that same shoot but it came back after a battery reset. The static electricity in the room was very noticeable.

 

Engineers on the list...what do you think? How would this fit with the camera LCD staying on even when the switch moves to off? How about the fact that it seems to misread the battery strength after this failure. Is there a shielding issue involved? How did Canon fix the problem? I'm no engineer.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[andym911]

Andy

thats a plan likely to capsize Leica, therefore benefitting whom ?

Riley,

benefitting both customer, leica and shareholders if done correctly.Current implementation by Leica is more likely to capsize Leica don't you think?

 

best

andy