HAAALP!! Elangkup

[iphoenix]

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Learned ladies and gentlemen of the Forum, I need your assistance. I have just purchased a 9cm f4 Elmar s/no. 592897, together with (presumably) it's original red box. On checking I find the lens was produced in 1942. I also find lens coating on this model commenced with s/no. 592451. However, all references I can find state lens coating did not start until 1946. A further query arises when I can find plenty of references to Leica's code "Elang", but none for "Elangkup", which is shown on the box. Please turn me from :( into :D, by telling me what I have?

[doubice]

The suffix 'kup' usually denoted a lens that was coupled to the rangefinder. I have a hunch that since your lens was made in 1942, the box (if marked ELANGKUP), may not be original. In 1942 Leitz did not produce any non-rangefinder coupled lenses - those were made during the late 1920's and early 1930's. It was during these times that an ELANG was a 90mm Elmar not provided with an RF cam and ELANGKUP was one with coupling. During the 1940's and later all 90mm Elmars were an 'ELANG'.

 

As to coating - that is an area that is very difficult to track. Many lenses were retro-coated, sometimes not necessarily by Leitz. And to add to the confusion, there are genuine Leica coated lenses, produced prior to 1946.

 

Best,

 

Jan

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[rickp13]

mine is sn 565951, reportedly from 1941 and uncoated.

 

rick

[luigi bertolotti]

Many lenses with "wartime" numbers can result difficult to be positioned in a precise status... I have a Telyt 40 cm with a 1941 number (567.044), which is coated, and has the f/stop to f 32 ; after due search, it resulted to have been delivered to the Italian importer in 1952, of course as a new item...

Jan's explanation on "kup" is perfect... me too think your box is probably not the one which originally kept that lens... anyway, given that the "kup" suffix was abandoned lot of years ago, a box with "Elangkup" engraved, in good conditions, is a not so common item...

Edited December 14, 2010 by luigi bertolotti

[Pecole]

The suffix 'kup' usually denoted a lens that was coupled to the rangefinder. I have a hunch that since your lens was made in 1942, the box (if marked ELANGKUP), may not be original. In 1942 Leitz did not produce any non-rangefinder coupled lenses - those were made during the late 1920's and early 1930's. It was during these times that an ELANG was a 90mm Elmar not provided with an RF cam and ELANGKUP was one with coupling. During the 1940's and later all 90mm Elmars were an 'ELANG'.

 

As to coating - that is an area that is very difficult to track. Many lenses were retro-coated, sometimes not necessarily by Leitz. And to add to the confusion, there are genuine Leica coated lenses, produced prior to 1946.

 

Best,

 

Jan

 

Wrong! KUP means "nickel plated". See all codes like ELANGKUP against ELANGCHROM, or ELZENKUP against ELZENCHROM. And of course, with the serial it bears, your lens cannot have been originally sold with your box! Regarding the coating, the explanation is very simple : immediately after the war, one of the basic upgradings offered by Leitz was the coating of lenses, and thousands have been post-coated between 1946-47 and 1952.

[jaapv]

Leitz was not the only firm offering coating of existing lenses. There were a number of them around the world. And as for the box, this was wartime, remember, with shortages of everything, including cardboard. It is certainly not inconceivable that somebody at Leica found and used a stash of old boxes that were hiding somewhere in the back of a warehouse.

Edited December 14, 2010 by jaapv

[UliWer]

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In Thiele's "Kleines Fabrikationhandbuch - Leica Objektive" 3. edit. I find the following note for the Elmar4/90 with numbers from 592.001 - 593.000 from 1942: "z.T. vergütet" - which means: a part was coated.

 

I am still doubtful whether Leitz really coated their lenses at this time, so it is very probable that it was coated later (I have a coated nickel Elmar 3.5/5cm from 1932 - obviously someone took care of it after the times which started at 1933 were over...).

 

The original name for the 9cm Elmar was Elang; all of the early ones had nickel rings, so there was no need for adding something. When it was coupled with the rangefinder for the Leica II it got the name Elang kup (kup shourt for "gekuppled" - coupled), though still nickled. The chrome finish came later , so they called the coupled chrome lens: Elang chrom. From about 1935 they were all coupled and in chrome, so they were only Elang.

 

Unfortunately I have only a leaflet from 1936, where the 5 and 3.5cm lenses still have the addendum "chrom" - not for the 9cm Elmar:

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Edited December 14, 2010 by UliWer

[UliWer]

Here is another leaflet from 1936 showing the Leica II, which was called "Lykup". The text says, it had a black painted body with chromed knobs.

 

The chromed version was called Lykup chrom, so "kup" can mean chrome but does not stand for nickel.

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[doubice]

Wrong! KUP means "nickel plated". See all codes like ELANGKUP against ELANGCHROM, or ELZENKUP against ELZENCHROM. And of course, with the serial it bears, your lens cannot have been originally sold with your box! Regarding the coating, the explanation is very simple : immediately after the war, one of the basic upgradings offered by Leitz was the coating of lenses, and thousands have been post-coated between 1946-47 and 1952.

 

With all due respect (and I truly mean it!),

 

I believe that you are wrong in this case. What Uli states above and documents, is the correct interpretation. First of all - the abbreviation 'KUP' , if referrring to a type of finish, would most probably stand for copper - in German Kupfer. The lenses are not copper plated - copper may only form a part of the nickel and chrome plating process.

 

In the Leitz lens lingo however, the 'KUP' addition stands for Kupplung (coupling - meaning rangefinder coupled). The abbreviation 'CHROM' was the only used to distinguish nickel plated lenses from those that were chrome plated.

 

Best,

 

Jan

[luigi bertolotti]

With all due respect (and I truly mean it!),

 

I believe that you are wrong in this case. What Uli states above and documents, is the correct interpretation. First of all - the abbreviation 'KUP' , if referrring to a type of finish, would most probably stand for copper - in German Kupfer. The lenses are not copper plated - copper may only form a part of the nickel and chrome plating process.

 

In the Leitz lens lingo however, the 'KUP' addition stands for Kupplung (coupling - meaning rangefinder coupled). The abbreviation 'CHROM' was the only used to distinguish nickel plated lenses from those that were chrome plated.

 

Best,

 

Jan

 

Sorry, Pecole, but I agree with Jan... indeed the names *****CHROM *****KUP can suggest a counterposition between them, but there is no evidence of "KUP" someway related to "Nickel"... Nickel was initially considered the standard finishing and chroming was a sort of "plus" so as the first interchangable lenses were uncoupled to RF, and "kupplung" was also a plus.

[iphoenix]

Thank you gentlemen, I really appreciate the information given. The lens certainly appears to be coated as the reflected images from the individual elements show both blue and pink tints as well as no tint. I felt the box was original, as both it and the lens show the focal length in cm. and the fit of the lens and caps is perfect. Also, a picture of a wartime Elmar 9cm on a Japanese (I think) web site shows an apparently identical box but, unfortunately, not the lid with the code on it. You have given me much to think about and my transition from :( to:D:D is under way.

[Pecole]

Sorry, Pecole, but I agree with Jan... indeed the names *****CHROM *****KUP can suggest a counterposition between them, but there is no evidence of "KUP" someway related to "Nickel"... Nickel was initially considered the standard finishing and chroming was a sort of "plus" so as the first interchangable lenses were uncoupled to RF, and "kupplung" was also a plus.

 

Hi, Luigi. I accept the above documented arguments (there is always something to learn in Leicalogy), and I found confirmation in the argument developed by the "father-of-all-Leica-collectors" : James Lager. What he says about the 9 cm Elmar ELANGCHROM/ELANGKUP (Leica, An illustrated history, Volume II - Lenses, page 79) is exactly what you say : "The KUP suffix in the codeword denotes rangefinder coupled". Final dot! How could I live for nearly 40 years with this misbelief?...I'll certainly have a better sleep now. Thank you, Forum mates!

[jc_braconi]

Do you know the cupronickel ?

 

Kupfernickel

 

Kupfernickel ist eine Legierung aus den Metallen Kupfer (Cu) und Nickel (Ni), die bereits im Altertum als Werkstoff für Münzen verwendet wurde. Auch bei hohem Kupfergehalt hat Kupfernickel eine silbrige Farbe. Eine ähnliche Legierung ist Neusilber.

Bei den Euromünzen wird eine Legierung aus 75 % Cu und 25 % Ni für den Ring der 2-Euro-Münze und die äußere Schicht des Kerns der 1-Euro-Münze verwendet. Die Schweizer Umlaufmünzen vom Zehnrappenstück bis zum Fünffrankenstück bestehen ebenfalls aus dieser Legierung.

 

Cupronickel

 

Cupronickel or copper-nickel (sometimes incorrectly referred to as "cupernickel") is an alloy of copper that contains nickel and strengthening elements, such as iron and manganese. Cupronickel is highly resistant to corrosion in seawater, because its electrode potential is adjusted to be neutral with regard to seawater. Because of this, it is used for piping, heat exchangers and condensers in seawater systems as well as marine hardware, and sometimes for the propellers, crankshafts and hulls of premium tugboats, fishing boats and other working boats.

A more familiar common use is in silver-coloured modern circulation coins. A typical mix is 75% copper, 25% nickel, and a trace amount of manganese. In the past true silver coins were debased with cupronickel. Despite high copper content, the colour of cupro-nickel remarkably is silver.

It is used in thermocouples, and the 55% copper/45% nickel alloy constantan is used to make resistors whose resistance is stable across changes in temperature.

Monel metal is a nickel-copper alloy, containing minimum 63% nickel.

See also bronze (copper alloyed with tin), brass (copper alloyed with zinc), and nickel silver (another group of copper-nickel alloys).

[jaapv]

Yes - but that alloy cannot be used in an electroplating process.

[luigi bertolotti]

JC... you're great... ... and your post on kupfernickel touched my heart... in 1979, for a University exam, I designed and artigianally built an instrument based on a kupfernickel thermocouple, which computed the derivative of the temperature curve of an alloy during cooling/solidifying... oh years of my youth...

[Pecole]

Do you know the cupronickel ?

 

Kupfernickel

 

Kupfernickel ist eine Legierung aus den Metallen Kupfer (Cu) und Nickel (Ni), die bereits im Altertum als Werkstoff für Münzen verwendet wurde. Auch bei hohem Kupfergehalt hat Kupfernickel eine silbrige Farbe. Eine ähnliche Legierung ist Neusilber.

Bei den Euromünzen wird eine Legierung aus 75 % Cu und 25 % Ni für den Ring der 2-Euro-Münze und die äußere Schicht des Kerns der 1-Euro-Münze verwendet. Die Schweizer Umlaufmünzen vom Zehnrappenstück bis zum Fünffrankenstück bestehen ebenfalls aus dieser Legierung.

 

Cupronickel

 

Cupronickel or copper-nickel (sometimes incorrectly referred to as "cupernickel") is an alloy of copper that contains nickel and strengthening elements, such as iron and manganese. Cupronickel is highly resistant to corrosion in seawater, because its electrode potential is adjusted to be neutral with regard to seawater. Because of this, it is used for piping, heat exchangers and condensers in seawater systems as well as marine hardware, and sometimes for the propellers, crankshafts and hulls of premium tugboats, fishing boats and other working boats.

A more familiar common use is in silver-coloured modern circulation coins. A typical mix is 75% copper, 25% nickel, and a trace amount of manganese. In the past true silver coins were debased with cupronickel. Despite high copper content, the colour of cupro-nickel remarkably is silver.

It is used in thermocouples, and the 55% copper/45% nickel alloy constantan is used to make resistors whose resistance is stable across changes in temperature.

Monel metal is a nickel-copper alloy, containing minimum 63% nickel.

See also bronze (copper alloyed with tin), brass (copper alloyed with zinc), and nickel silver (another group of copper-nickel alloys).

 

Waw! what an encyclopaedia, even further than Leica...But I believe - especially if "kupferenickel" cannot be plated - that the question is solved in favour of the "coupling".

[jc_braconi]

Waw! what an encyclopaedia, even further than Leica...But I believe - especially if "kupferenickel" cannot be plated - that the question is solved in favour of the "coupling".

 

I am not an expert in galvanoplasty, what I know is if you want a durable plating you must work in 3 step plating : 1st is copper, 2nd is nickel and 3rd is chromium.

 

I do not think it was used plain cupronickel for making pieces, but who knows ?

For me "KUP" remains for nickel as this code was used for other lenses.

Edited December 15, 2010 by jc_braconi

[jaapv]

Nor am I, but I know that you can use an alloy as base, but that the plating metals are always pure (that is what I meant by being used in the plating process). I doubt that Leica used different materials to machine the barrels They are probably brass..

Edited December 15, 2010 by jaapv

[wlaidlaw]

Yes - but that alloy cannot be used in an electroplating process.

 

You can of course, only electroplate one element at a time. You can do layers one above each other, as I have just been having done on one of Steve Barnett's Thumbies, where I have had the brass Thumbie rough nickel plated and then satin chrome plated to match the M8's finish. For a few seconds, I was tempted to have it gold plated for a super bling Thumbie.

 

On the lenses, what does Van Hasbroeck's book say. My copy is in France, so I can't refer to it but it is always my "bible" when finding information on old Leica stuff.

 

Wilson

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[iphoenix]

It is amazing the amount of information available through the members of this forum. I am pleased to have prompted such a discussion with my query. Van Hasbroeck's book has been the source of much of my information and does not appear to have any reference to a code name with the suffix ...kup. However, I see the reference to the 135mm f4.5 Elmar shows the coupled version as having the code "EFERMKUD". Could the ...kud be a misprint?