New to Leica : from X1 to digital M ?

[htjvan]

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I know similar questions have been posted before and I have read Richard's post 'jump to M9' (all 33 pages of it!).

 

I am new to Leica and this forum and it started when I purchased the X1 few months ago. I am enjoying photography again !! And old story here : I started to read this forum and got interested in a rangefinder and after playing with several at the local Leica store : excited !!

 

Few things to start before my question :

 

I am absolutely happy with my X1 and have no problems with the 'slow AF' ( I don't find it slow at all in most cases) or bufferspeed (which is slow but doesn't bother me)

The fixed focal length is an eye-opener to me. It works great in 85% of my pictures and the other 15% " Well I just don't take them.

The size and weight : the X1 is a joy to carry everywhere.

I am not interested in pixel peeping or in need of the latest specs, I enjoy photography, printing at 8x10 (occasional I bring a very good shot for 3x19 print) and lots of viewing on my Ipad.

I was not really planning to buy a digital M yet since I am perfectly happy with my X1

 

But.... At my last visit to the Leica shop the sales asked if was interested in an M8.2, mint condition. He showed me a used but unused M8.2 with only few hundred activations and almost full warranty left at a good price (not the cheapest price but a really good price for an almost unused camera). Even comes with 2 filters included.

 

So.... I am very tempted to get it and here are my questions :

I have 3 choices here :

 

1 is to trade in the X1 (painfull since I like it so much (and I just got a beautifull Luigi halfcase for it the other week !!!) and get a 28mm elmarit + 50mm summarit with the M8.2 But I don't like to walk around and change lenses all the time. How do I use the summarit ??

 

2. keep the X1 and get the M8.2 with a 35mm Summarit. As mentioned above I am not a person who walks around changing lenses and the 35mm would be a nice compromise (I do crop my pictures often with the X1's 36mm focal length). But when am I gonna use the X1 in this scenario ?? And is the 35mm a good choice for an allround lens on the M8.2?

 

3. Just keep the X1 for now .......

 

Any suggestions are welcome and btw, I will post some X1 pictures on the appropiate forum for your comments.

 

Harrie

[RichardM8]

Harrie, obviously - as you read 'my' thread - I recognize your entire post.

 

Not much to add from my side at this point as it's all in the other thread except for one thing. I think that keeping your X1 and adding an M8 with the same or a comparable focal length doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. One of both cameras will soon be gathering dust imo.

Edited December 14, 2010 by RichardM8

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[NZDavid]

Harrie,

 

Oh dear. Oh dear me. Sounds like you should never have got that X1. Or ever have gone near Leica in the first place. As many others have warned, it's highly dangerous, contagious, and a slippery slope! Buy the M8 and couple of lenses and before you know it you will want to buy more lenses, even another body...

 

The image quality of the M combination will be just as good, if not better than the X1. The main difference, of course, is in the handling, and whether you like rangefinder focusing. I do, and find it fast and precise, but others never get used to it. Why not rent or take the M for a spin for a few hours or over the weekend?

 

It doesn't really matter how many lenses you own, you can only ever use one at a time, much like you can only ever wear one shirt at a time. If you are going out for a day, you can decide which one you want to take. Or maybe tuck an extra lens in a pouch -- they aren't big. 35 is an excellent focal length for all sorts of shots from travel to landscapes to people. DOF is limited, though. A longer lens will let you explore shallower DOF, good for portraits. A wider lens will let you get more interiors or wide open spaces.

 

Another advantage of separate lenses is if something goes wrong with the body, your lenses will still be fine -- sort of like a components hi-fi system versus an all-in-one. Leica lenses also do not depreciate; they are a good investment.

 

One other thought: Have you thought of trying a film M?

[spylaw4]

Harrie, welcome to the wonderful world of Leica! You are just discovering the LUD (Leica User Dilemma) syndrome.

I would suggest that you keep the X-1 and buy the 8.2. It's what I have, like and find useful and comprehensive. Starting with one economical lens (pre-owned?) you can then go wider/longer in line with your photographic style. Will the 35 (47mm) on the 8.2 be sufficiently different from the effective 36mm? - try it and see, otherwise look at a 50 (67mm on the 8.2).

 

If it's a good price and in mint condition unused and unregistered then IMO it's a good buy.

 

I mainly use the 8.2 for B&W work (although the X-1 does do good B&W) and for the additional focal lengths I use. But I have a feeling that my poor little 28/2.8 will start to feel neglected!

[jaapv]

That was an expensive camera to buy, that X1, you seem to be doomed.. I do not think it would be a wise plan to keep the X1 and get the M8.2 with just a 35, but on the other hand it leaves you room to manoeuvre, as you can always sell one or the other later without too much of a financial loss. My impulse would be to go the whole hog, get the M8.2 with two lenses and carry on from there. But it is indeed a slippery slope...

[CharlesHolland]

New to the forum, my first post, but recognisable. I used to have a nice Nikon digital slr with beautifull lenses and leica d lux4. I found out to be using almost exclusively the small but excellent high quality leica.

Two months ago I tried a m9: the m-system was feeling like in the good old days of analogue mechanical photography: I decide where and how to focus, I decide what aperture to use, I decide what shutter speed etc. I know: you can set all these things on a digital slr manually too, but they do not seem to be designed for that purpose. The interaction between object and my eye is much more direct with my recently purchased second hand m8.2. The complete Nikon gear was sold quickly, not a moment of regret!,,

 

Now to the x1:

with much regret due to the compagnionship for the last year I sold my d-lux4 straight away. Someone else is lucky with it now. The dlux4 remains an electronic camera where as the m8.2 is a mechanical camera interface with electronic processing.

 

Back to the m-system: I ended up with a summarit 2.5/50mm that fits my kind of photography well and a super angulon from sixties: gorgeous to play.

[htjvan]

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Thanks for all your replies and I will keep posting some more pictures from my X1 no doubt ! I will also update my user profile with some proper information.

 

It's not my intention to build another 33 page thread :-) and I am happy to hear some confirmations : Even though it would be painfull I would trade-in the X1, I agree with Richard and Jaap that keeping it would be no sense. Also, the fact that not always 35mm (FF equivalent) is the standard for everyone. As I said I find myself cropping quite some pictures and enjoy taking half-portrets. In that case I could well consider the 35mm summarit (47mm on the m8.2) as my standard lens to start and see where to go from there. I am just busy in trying to crop' 30% of my existing X1 pictures where it would not be possible to compensate this with 'a step back' (landscape etc) and see how they end up.

 

Anyway, all of you seem to agree that it would be most wise to spend my money on another Leica Seems to me Leica users are not savings minded !!

 

Cheers.

[htjvan]

Hi David,

 

I am from Netherlands but living in Asia (Bangkok to be precise) en enjoying the life out here (I was in Netherlands just the other week and almost froze to death). Anyway, we have a few (2 to be precise) excellent Leica shops in town with great prices, collection and knowledge.

 

To answer your question : No I am not in for a film M, just not my cup of tea. I enjoy the digital world so I can try and take unlimited shots and review them when needed.

 

However, I do like the rangefinder, tried it and found it immediate pleasant to use (I am old enough to have a history before AF SLR's).

 

Cheers

 

Harrie,

 

Oh dear. Oh dear me. Sounds like you should never have got that X1. Or ever have gone near Leica in the first place. As many others have warned, it's highly dangerous, contagious, and a slippery slope! Buy the M8 and couple of lenses and before you know it you will want to buy more lenses, even another body...

 

The image quality of the M combination will be just as good, if not better than the X1. The main difference, of course, is in the handling, and whether you like rangefinder focusing. I do, and find it fast and precise, but others never get used to it. Why not rent or take the M for a spin for a few hours or over the weekend?

 

It doesn't really matter how many lenses you own, you can only ever use one at a time, much like you can only ever wear one shirt at a time. If you are going out for a day, you can decide which one you want to take. Or maybe tuck an extra lens in a pouch -- they aren't big. 35 is an excellent focal length for all sorts of shots from travel to landscapes to people. DOF is limited, though. A longer lens will let you explore shallower DOF, good for portraits. A wider lens will let you get more interiors or wide open spaces.

 

Another advantage of separate lenses is if something goes wrong with the body, your lenses will still be fine -- sort of like a components hi-fi system versus an all-in-one. Leica lenses also do not depreciate; they are a good investment.

 

One other thought: Have you thought of trying a film M?

[sfokevin]

Harrie... If you have any teen aged children I would suggest you tell them that a private college is out of the question...

[RichardM8]

The image quality of the M combination will be just as good, if not better than the X1.

 

With some nuance imo. Up to ISO 320 absolutely. At ISO 640 it highly depends on the scene, exposure which will be better. I'd say 6/7 out of 10 the X1 will be better. From 640 on the X1 beats the M big time.

 

While I have an M8.2 now I had the X1 too and shot some 1500 images with it.

[htjvan]

Hi Richard,

 

I see some amazing M8.2 iso 1250 results using DNG + LR3 on this forum. Seems the noise reduction with LR3 is very good. Any experience with that?

 

 

 

 

 

With some nuance imo. Up to ISO 320 absolutely. At ISO 640 it highly depends on the scene, exposure which will be better. I'd say 6/7 out of 10 the X1 will be better. From 640 on the X1 beats the M big time.

 

While I have an M8.2 now I had the X1 too and shot some 1500 images with it.

[jaapv]

With some nuance imo. Up to ISO 320 absolutely. At ISO 640 it highly depends on the scene, exposure which will be better. I'd say 6/7 out of 10 the X1 will be better. From 640 on the X1 beats the M big time.

 

While I have an M8.2 now I had the X1 too and shot some 1500 images with it.

That is, Richard, if you define image quality solely in terms of absolute image noise. As it happens I find well-exposed ISO 1250 shots on the M8 when developed in ACR6 (or ISO 1600-2000 shots on the M9 for that matter) amongst the most visually pleasing there are, despite - or maybe because of- of the slightly textured aspect.

[RichardM8]

I see some amazing M8.2 iso 1250 results using DNG + LR3 on this forum. Seems the noise reduction with LR3 is very good. Any experience with that?

 

Yes. I've worked with LR since the day it came out after years with PS. Since LR3 it's the only program I use. Indeed the noise reduction is (imo) state of the art now. But this works equally well on all images (X1 and M).

 

I don't have my M8.2 for very long but I too have shot some ISO 1250 images that turned out amazingly well. But it's still much more of a hit & miss affair than with the X1. And while you can make a nice high ISO shot look good with a fair amount of processing, a comparable shot from an X1 requires much less work, filtering, post sharpening etc.

Most of the better aspects from an M8 image (better lenses, micro contrast, detail, sharpness, dynamic range, among others) get lost at high ISOs (above 640) due to noise and/or the need for 'heavy' processing.

 

As for amazing high ISO images from the M8 on this forum, 99% of them are so small they'll look good from just about any camera with some careful processing.

 

 

That said, I really love my M and won't ever consider going back to the X1.

[htjvan]

hi Jaap,

 

I have a question that you can probably answer: I read in several reviews that for the M8/M8.2 the actual iso sensivity differs from the specs. Meaning iso 160 is actually iso200, or iso 1250 is actually iso1600. Can you shed some light on this?

 

Harrie

 

 

 

 

 

That is, Richard, if you define image quality solely in terms of absolute image noise. As it happens I find well-exposed ISO 1250 shots on the M8 when developed in ACR6 (or ISO 1600-2000 shots on the M9 for that matter) amongst the most visually pleasing there are, despite - or maybe because of- of the slightly textured aspect.

[Giorgio Festa]

I would like to share my experience...

I had a X1 until a few days ago. I bought it because I needed a small camera to carry with my wherever I go..

It has been my "first step" in the Leica world. Than I started to read books, forums, blogs about Leica and therefore I started to want something more....(it should be the famous Leica desease...).

This is why I sold the X1 in order to but an used M8 with a couple of lens (voiglander 28 F1.9 and summacron 40 F2). I am not sure I did the right choice (the M8 and the lenses have not arrived yet...) but my "sixth-sense" says it is..

I have always be fascinated by rangefinder cameras (actually I am using a Nikon D700 which I will always keep to shoot in some specific conditions...such as concerts, theaters, sport...) and I hope I did the right step...

[Ecaton]

The X1 is the right tool to have in a pocket on a "I might take pictures today" day. If you leave home to go shooting, the M8 should be in the bag. My advise,therefore: keep both.

[jaapv]

hi Jaap,

 

I have a question that you can probably answer: I read in several reviews that for the M8/M8.2 the actual iso sensivity differs from the specs. Meaning iso 160 is actually iso200, or iso 1250 is actually iso1600. Can you shed some light on this?

 

Harrie

As such that is a correct statement. The official ISO norm is very limited regarding the exposure value of digital captures and states in essence that the ISO value for a sensor is defined by being equivalent to the silverhalide ISO value, without giving norms or methods for measuring this equivalence. That means that it is open to interpretation by the camera maker. I don't know which method Leica uses to arrive at their ISO values, but the result is that external exposure meters and flashes can best be set to 200,400, etc to arrive at optimum results. Other cameras show other biases. In general exposure for digital is essentially different from film exposure. There was a good article in LFI on the subject a few months ago.

[NZDavid]

Well, Bangkok will be a lot lot hotter than Europe, or here (mid 20sC). Wonderful food and people, though I haven't actually visited!

 

Yes, the X1 has excellent IQ even at ISO 3200, but I think you will find an M8 or M9 more versatile. If not a 35, may be consider a 24 and a 50. Good luck!

[RichardM8]

Well, Bangkok will be a lot lot hotter than Europe, or here (mid 20sC). Wonderful food and people, though I haven't actually visited!

 

Yes, the X1 has excellent IQ even at ISO 3200, but I think you will find an M8 or M9 more versatile. If not a 35, may be consider a 24 and a 50. Good luck!

 

 

Oh yes, the heat is killing in Bangkok. We were in Thailand for 3 week this year and some 5 days in Bangkok. I only had my X1 with me on this trip and it performed flawlessly and I came back with lots of great images.

 

If an M is more versatile than the X1 depends on your angle of view.

 

From an interchangeable lenses point of view, yes. Obviously. But from an ISO bandwidth point of view (ie low light shooting) the X1 has the edge by quite a margin. It's also small & light and has a build-in flash. Yes, I hate using a flash too but I still used it a lot more than I thought. Either for fill-in or to take the shot in the first place. Last, the X1 is way faster than a novice M user (that I am now).

 

Versatile... hmm... depends imo.

 

 

Below a shot from my son in Bangkok from the X1. Very little post, the colors were this intense.

 

Edited December 16, 2010 by RichardM8

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[htjvan]

Ok, it didn't take me 33 pages (again, Richard did all the work for me getting all questions answerred). This afternoon I took the plunge and bought the m8.2 with a 35mm cron asph.

Traded in de X1 (with a sad feeling to it, such a beautifull camera).

Strangest thing happened: my wife was never interested in any camera, not even the X1. But she picked up the M and started trying the rangefinder with enthousiasm!! (she actually pushed me a little making a decision to get the M).

 

 

So.... Expect more pictures from this part of the world on the forum. Thanks for all your advice but please..... No more 'great' ideas for a while about all the fantastic lenses you can get for the M