wltpch Posted December 12, 2010 Share #1 Posted December 12, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi I was recently told by a reliable source that the Summicrn 90 APO ASPH has such a bad focus shift problem with the M9 that its production has been halted. Is this true ? Thanks. LT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 12, 2010 Posted December 12, 2010 Hi wltpch, Take a look here focus shift using APO ASPH 90/2 with M9?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted December 12, 2010 Share #2 Posted December 12, 2010 Utter and total nonsense... You were told by an unreliable source I would say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjeerd Posted December 12, 2010 Share #3 Posted December 12, 2010 Hi, I have been told by a optical designer at Zeiss that there is indeed a focus problem with the APO ASPH 90/2. This guy seemed really to know what he was talking about. The 75 Summicron, so he told me, is a lot better. He also told me that their own 85 2.0 also suffers from some focus problems. regards, Tjeerd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 12, 2010 Share #4 Posted December 12, 2010 There may be a focussing problem for some users - it is a critical lens - but there are no significant focus shift problems with the lens -andit is not discontinued. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted December 12, 2010 Share #5 Posted December 12, 2010 It is impossibel for a lens to focus shift on an M9 and not on a film camera. I have never heard a complaint about focus shift on that lens on any camera. That said, fast older design tele lenses tend to by their nature shift focus. Long focus does not do this, ie non telephoto designs. Now what does happen for sure is the image goes slightly soft in the close range, say 6 feet, So does the thin tele emarit, pre asph 90 2.0, 90 2.8 recently discontinued. This is not a result of focus shift. Stopping down does NOT eliminate the effect. If you don`t want it, buy the 90 2.8 Elmatit for viso, 3 element 90 4.0, 90 4.0, or current 90 4.0. It is every bit a modern type image and is as good close as far. It is as good at 4 as 8. This is a underrated lens, but my go to lens for carry around. If I know I need a fast 90, I will bring one. The 75 was designed differently so avoid this. Floating elements I think. This close softness is being mistaken for focus shift. I think the terninogy is just wrong. True focus shift will manifest at long distance as well as up close and this does not happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckw Posted December 12, 2010 Share #6 Posted December 12, 2010 I would sure like to see a definitive answer to this question. I asked a somewhat similar question here about a month ago - more specifically was Leica making *adjustments* to this lens before doing another production run because of focus shift reports. Most of the responses were positive regarding the lens but I still keep seeing the occasional thread where some are having considerable problems with focus shift. Also, I had one dealer tell me that he has had the 90/2 on order since November of last year which would put Leica beyond the normal one year production cycle for a lens. So, either Leica is very busy trying to meet demand for other lenses or, there is some reason for Leica to not have scheduled a production run of the 90/2 for such a long time! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mc_k Posted December 13, 2010 Share #7 Posted December 13, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Maybe you mean focus problem, not "focus shift" problem; I don't recall it has a reputation for focus shift. I was on a waiting list for the whole year, and finally got a copy a couple of months ago. It was new, but was made a year or two ago. A few dealers got backorders filled around that time. My copy is exact and focuses perfectly. I got it because I didn't think it would be made anymore, but according to Leica it is not discontinued. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 13, 2010 Share #8 Posted December 13, 2010 I would sure like to see a definitive answer to this question. I asked a somewhat similar question here about a month ago - more specifically was Leica making *adjustments* to this lens before doing another production run because of focus shift reports. Most of the responses were positive regarding the lens but I still keep seeing the occasional thread where some are having considerable problems with focus shift. Also, I had one dealer tell me that he has had the 90/2 on order since November of last year which would put Leica beyond the normal one year production cycle for a lens. So, either Leica is very busy trying to meet demand for other lenses or, there is some reason for Leica to not have scheduled a production run of the 90/2 for such a long time! Please link to those threads - I never saw one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckw Posted December 13, 2010 Share #9 Posted December 13, 2010 Please link to those threads - I never saw one. Here are some links to other threads that I could find relatively quickly. The first link is a thread that I started that asked about this lens; the other threads all, to one degree or another, contain posts that discuss problems with the 90 AA. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/148011-new-90mm-summicrons.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/154970-90mm-asph-apo-summicron-no-more.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/150319-m9-summicron-90mm-asph-apo-focus.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/132781-please-advise-my-90mm-summicron-woes.html I sure would like the story behind why this lens has been so scarce for so long (if there is any story to be told)! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted December 13, 2010 Share #10 Posted December 13, 2010 I cannot say for sure yet ... but my preliminary tongue-in-cheek test with the Apo-Summicron-M 90 mm Asph indicates a surprisingly strong aperture-related focus shift indeed. An aspherical lens with a smallish angle of view shouldn't suffer from that in any noticable way ... but it does. Or at least mine seems to do the last time I checked (those tests are tricky and can be misleading, so one single test doesn't mean too much). Anyway, after the Summilux-M 35 mm Asph, the Summilux-M 50 mm Asph, and the Apo-Summicron-M 75 mm Asph got floating elements to improve close-range performance, sooner or later it will be the time for the Apo-Summicron-M 90 mm Asph to get those, right? Why not now? Sounds plausible, no? However as of now, there is absolutely no official or inofficial statement or hint or whispering from Leica Camera AG or the Leica dealers that the 90 mm 1:2 currently gets re-designed. So all this is pure speculation out of the blue ... just a desperate attempt to somehow provide a possible explanation for the current shortage of Apo-Summicron-M 90 mm Asph lenses. However one thing is for sure: No Leica lens gets produced forever. There always will be an end, followed by an improved successor model. The question is not if; just when. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted December 13, 2010 Share #11 Posted December 13, 2010 Here are some links to other threads that I could find relatively quickly. The first link is a thread that I started that asked about this lens; the other threads all, to one degree or another, contain posts that discuss problems with the 90 AA. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/148011-new-90mm-summicrons.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/154970-90mm-asph-apo-summicron-no-more.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/150319-m9-summicron-90mm-asph-apo-focus.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/132781-please-advise-my-90mm-summicron-woes.html Not one of those threads suggests that the 90 AA has aperture-related focus shift. One says it has "focus shift" but the context shows that the poster is talking about focus errors that vary with the distance focused on - i.e. something that should be fixable by adjusting the lens and/or rangefinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted December 13, 2010 Share #12 Posted December 13, 2010 Not one of those threads suggests that the 90 AA has aperture-related focus shift. But I do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 13, 2010 Share #13 Posted December 13, 2010 Of course it has some focus shift - show me a lens without spherical aberration and I'l show you one without focus shift. However, in the case of the 90 AA it is so small that it has no practical significance, and it certainly wouldn't induce Leica to discontinue the lens without successor. It is impossible to imagine an M system without 90 Summicron!. As it was impossible to envisage a system without 35 Summilux, causing the -strongly shifting- version 1 to be produced right up to the moment the version 2 saw the light. And yes - these threads are NOT about focus shift, but about banal misfocussing. An misconception that is all too common. I strongly agree with Olaf's last sentence: However as of now, there is absolutely no official or inofficial statement or hint or whispering from Leica Camera AG or the Leica dealers that the 90 mm 1:2 currently gets re-designed. So all this is pure speculation out of the blue ... just a desperate attempt to somehow provide a possible explanation for the current shortage of Apo-Summicron-M 90 mm Asph lenses. However one thing is for sure: No Leica lens gets produced forever. There always will be an end, followed by an improved successor model. The question is not if; just when Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted December 13, 2010 Share #14 Posted December 13, 2010 The close range softness over shadows the focus shift problem. Leica did admit to this issue years back, also with the 90 2.8 last one. They would tell you to get the 90 4.0 for best close performance. Now all their lenses are perfect and well they should be for the price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted December 13, 2010 Share #15 Posted December 13, 2010 Of course it has some focus shift - show me a lens without spherical aberration and I'l show you one without focus shift. However, in the case of the 90 AA it is so small that it has no practical significance, and it certainly wouldn't induce Leica to discontinue the lens without successor. I just re-did my Apo-Summicron-M 90 mm Asph focus-shift test, with different subjects, under different (better) lighting conditions, at two distances—1.7 m/5 ft and 3.2 m/10 ft. Result: Very obvious aperture-related focus shift which is way too strong to be acceptable. At f/2.8, the shift is still minuscule but at f/4 and f/5.6 it's really bad. At f/8, increasing depth-of-field just barely catches up with the shift; the front limit of DOF (when looking closely) approximately is where the plane of focus is supposed to be. The lens has just returned from Leica Customer Service in Solms and definitely is not faulty. I guess many who complain about the Apo-Summicron-M 90 mm Asph's irreliable and inconsistent focusing simply don't understand that they're dealing with aperture-related focus shift. Most photographers don't even know the word. In my opinion, the focus shift is reason enough for Leica to discontinue this lens and to re-design it, similar to how they recently did with the Summilux-M 35 mm Asph. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted December 13, 2010 Share #16 Posted December 13, 2010 Well, we seem to have quite a few reliable sources lately. One rumouring a 1.4/90 lens, the next claiming the lens to have focus shift. For the time being I prefer to rely on what I can see (all taken at approx 1.6m; the middle bottle is in focus at f/:2; the left is a little bit set back, the right with the most distance to exact focus): M-Summicron Apo-Asph 90mm at f/:2 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! at f/:2.8 at f/:4 at f/:5.6 What I see is what was to be exspected: a constant increase of DOF to the backward direction, but no photo shows me more sharpness on a bottle out of focus than on the middle bottle in focus. All I know from the 1.4/35 Asph (1. Version) with a much bigger DOF a lens with focus shift would show the bottle further back in better focus on smaller apertures. From all I can see with my lens, I shall uphold to any statement that it has any noticable focus shift. If someone said that sharpness for f:/2 is suboptimal for this outstandingly sharp lens, I'd agree. So we might say, that a further version might have a better resolution for short distances. That's something different than focus shift. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! at f/:2.8 at f/:4 at f/:5.6 What I see is what was to be exspected: a constant increase of DOF to the backward direction, but no photo shows me more sharpness on a bottle out of focus than on the middle bottle in focus. All I know from the 1.4/35 Asph (1. Version) with a much bigger DOF a lens with focus shift would show the bottle further back in better focus on smaller apertures. From all I can see with my lens, I shall uphold to any statement that it has any noticable focus shift. If someone said that sharpness for f:/2 is suboptimal for this outstandingly sharp lens, I'd agree. So we might say, that a further version might have a better resolution for short distances. That's something different than focus shift. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/139123-focus-shift-using-apo-asph-902-with-m9/?do=findComment&comment=1529890'>More sharing options...
01af Posted December 13, 2010 Share #17 Posted December 13, 2010 For the time being I prefer to rely on what I can see ... It would be helpful if you'd open your eyes before believing what you see. ... the middle bottle is in focus at f/2 ... It's not. From all I can see with my lens, I shall uphold to any statement that it has any noticable focus shift. Use a test subject with a continuous distance gradient (rather than three discrete distances), then you will see what I am talking about. If someone said that sharpness for f:/2 is suboptimal for this outstandingly sharp lens, I'd agree. ... and that doesn't make you wondering? Obviously your f/2 image is not properly focused. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted December 13, 2010 Share #18 Posted December 13, 2010 It would be helpful if you'd open your eyes before believing what you see...... As long as you don't show your examples with "obvious" aperture related focus shift, "which is way too strong to be acceptable", I uphold what I said. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 13, 2010 Share #19 Posted December 13, 2010 It would be helpful if you'd open your eyes before believing what you see. Gentlemen,gentlemen,this is just a discussion about small distances... It's not. Hard to tell without comparison. Use a test subject with a continuous distance gradient (rather than three discrete distances), then you will see what I am talking about. That is certainly true. ... and that doesn't make you wondering? Obviously your f/2 image is not properly focused.Just out of interest, may we see your series? I would like to be able to judge if the focus shift - which certainly may be present- has relevance for real-life photography. The fact that you were obviously surprised suggests to me that it did not affect your photographic results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted December 13, 2010 Share #20 Posted December 13, 2010 Up for discussion: f/:2: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! f/:2.8: f/:4: f/:5.6: Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! f/:2.8: f/:4: f/:5.6: ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/139123-focus-shift-using-apo-asph-902-with-m9/?do=findComment&comment=1529976'>More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.