M9 and Red Edge Redux--Part II, with 28mm Elmarit?

[AlanG]

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The output of CMOS sensors varies even more, for that matter. But the real issue is: How could this variation explain the red edges phenomenon? Frankly I don’t see how it could. Nobody has offered an explanation so far, rather than just pointing fingers at something or other. “It’s the CCD!”, “It’s the Bayer pattern!”, “It’s the microlenses!” … these are not what I would call an explanation.

 

How is this any different from lens casts on MF backs?

 

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[Guest]

Try taking pictures of snow with anything wider than 50 with the light source (the sun) from one of the sides, even the newest Leica lenses have this problem, actually my 35 Biogon has less red corners than my 35 cron, and i also thought this was a camera problem, but now i have tried several M9's, and several different lenses and all of them show similar red corners, which i did not see before the snow landed... So this is not overreacting, this is BAD, really BAD...it almost makes the M9 a B&W only camera in environments like this, which is really far out...

 

This is with a new 35 cron, today...

 

@ atufte: Puh, that really is close to the bone and makes the decision pro M 9, though desired, a tough one!

 

Best regards Hermann

 

BTW: Great galleries on your HP, love it!

[atufte]

Did a quick "snow" test today with M9 + Nokton 35 /1.2 and found that this is the best lens iv'e tried

yet for red edges, the problem is next to non existent with this lens coded as the Leica Summicron-M 35mm f/2 (IV), i have the last week tried, Zeiss Biogon 35/2 ZM (slight red corners but not much) the Leica Summicron 35mm Asph (perfect with the light (sun) in front or back, but terrible with the light from the side)

, and last but not least the Leica Summilux 35 (the new one) which was similar to the Cron just with slightly more reds (warmer in color all over) - sorry i can not post pictures from all lenses but i accidentally emptied

the thrash on my MBA, where these files was camping

 

But since the Nokton 35/1.2 is such a wonderful lens (i actually like it better than the 35 lux) i'm

more than happy to use it and skip the Leica glass all together...

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[parsod]

I did some testing again this evening against my wall trying out different manual settings from the lens detection menu. At least in this artificial indoor light 28 f/2.8 11809 seems to give best results for my Elmar 24 f/3.8 even if not perfect. See examples below where the first one is the Elmar as coded and the second as 28 f/2.8 11809. Exactly the same exposure in both cases. As a reference the third one is with my D700 + 24 f/2.8 Ais at the same aperture 5.6.

 

I will test this setting outdoors in the nice winter landscape we have here in Stockholm during the coming weekend.

 

/Regards - Pär

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[mjh]

How is this any different from lens casts on MF backs?

Like I said … quite probably it’s the same phenomenon. Alas, that doesn’t bring us any closer to an explanation.

[wattsy]

So this is not overreacting, this is BAD, really BAD...

 

I agree. Patronising comments from Jaap and his ilk are IMHO unhelpful when posters are trying to find solutions to what is an obvious problem for many M9 users.

 

By the way, red edges or not, that snow scene in post #40 is a beautiful shot.

[tobey bilek]

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The temporary solution is either a cyan gradient. Or a very soft edged cyan brush of low opacity applied over the red edge. Save them as an action.. Adjust the layer opacity as necessary.

 

It could be done with curves or levels and a layer mask also. Work on the minus red channel, ie cyan.

 

Does Lightroom not have the adjustment brush in the develope section? Shift color balance to cyan and paint in the adjustment on the left side. This is the missing hook. LR3 also has gradients.

 

Then wait to see if there is solution from Leica.

[charles-k]

I have a M9 with similar issues. Any FL 35 and less, the red edge does show up when you have a light, semi over exposure and then PP with some saturation. In speaking to an authorised Leica repairer, he suggested that there is a quite a wide variation in CCD sensors. Yes the in camera software should correct, but it is very difficult. The camera could be sent back to Solms, and recalibrated, but yes the edge dissappears, but the rendering may not be the same either.

 

Best to incorporate in the workflow, either with corner fix or Capture One, take an exposure with an expodisc and have the correction in the PP workflow. Only takes 2 seconds. Another method is to use ACR graduated filter, hue set to 203, and adjust the level to remove the red edge. Again very quick.

 

My feeling the red edge problem will not disappear in the short term with CCD sensors, so it is relatively easy fix to incoporate in the PP work flow.

 

If you are after a solution to the red edge, both Capture One or Corner Fix will do it very quickly. You can use the graduated filter too. As part of your PP workflow, it is a matter of few seconds, and it is very specific and accurate to your lens/M9 combination.

 

Here is a comparison I did on FM forum, before and after, http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/920070/112 . The first shot show alot of red edging, both left and top right with the 28 Elmarit coding, and then with the LCC correction in C1.

 

With the variability between different M9's and lenses, the amount and location of the red edge will vary. So the best solution is to accept the variability, take a couple shots with an expo disc, and have the correction for future PP of shots.

 

 

 

The Leica engineers will hopefully have a firmware/software solution soon, and in meantime we can take many more great shots without the red edge issues.

[atufte]

Why can't the superb app cornerfix be implemented into the M9's firmware, or at least as an own tool in LR or PS, like in Capture One (which i can't stand), i don't see why Leica can't fix this with their money for development when a single creative soul like Sandy can do it with cornerfix...?

 

Leica should give Sandy a reward or even better a well paid full time job at Leica, fixing the problems

they can't seem to handle them selfs...

 

A big thumbs up for people like Sandy....:)

[C_R]

If you are after a solution to the red edge, both Capture One or Corner Fix will do it very quickly. You can use the graduated filter too. As part of your PP workflow, it is a matter of few seconds, and it is very specific and accurate to your lens/M9 combination. ...

With the variability between different M9's and lenses, the amount and location of the red edge will vary. So the best solution is to accept the variability, take a couple shots with an expo disc, and have the correction for future PP of shots.

 

Thanks for this idea, I played already with Capture One´s LCC feature. Before buying an ExpoDisk or something, I will try the economy version, a Melitta Filter as white balance template. Nice review here:

Product Comparison: White Balance Filters (Professional Photographer Magazine Web Exclusives)

[mjh]

i don't see why Leica can't fix this with their money for development when a single creative soul like Sandy can do it with cornerfix...?

While the development of CornerFix (and offering it as freeware) is a great service to the community, I doubt that Sandy has any more insights into the issue than Leica’s engineers have. Integrating CornerFix into the M9’s firmware may or may not be possible, but then it would still be necessary to create profiles (with CornerFix), load these into the camera (using some software that needs to be developed), and then the firmware would need to be expanded to allow the user to select the profile to use. I don’t quite see that happening and I am not sure that the existing workflow isn’t actually simpler (also less error-prone since you don’t have to select the right profile before the shot).

[jaapv]

I agree. Patronising comments from Jaap and his ilk are IMHO unhelpful when posters are trying to find solutions to what is an obvious problem for many M9 users.

 

Just wondering - do you actually own an M9? And did you use it to shoot snow scenes? Yes- there have been examples of red edge and some lenses - and apparently cameras are affected more. But, for instance, I used it with an Elmarit 28 in the snow, not trace of red edge - so small wonder that sweeping staements like "Any lens below 35 mm will show the problem" do get challenged.

[hoppyman]

Some much downsized uncropped new samples from my M9

Elmar 24

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Summicron 28 ASPH

 

 

 

Summilux 35 ASPH (new model)

[jaapv]

Thank you for illustrating the point, Geoff. My computer died and I won't be accessing my data disk for acouple of weeks, so no examples until then. It is quite irritating btw to be attacked on something one did not say.I never said users experiencing the problem were overreacting, as some less careful readers assume .My point was that it irritates me me when I see non-owners using something like this for hammering the camera.

[hoppyman]

Jaap, I see some reasoned discussion and opinion in the thread and useful illustrations. showing the presence and absence of this issue with different equipment and circumstances. I think that those are worthwhile.

[sandymc]

I doubt that Sandy has any more insights into the issue than Leica’s engineers have.

 

Given that Leica have a (very) complete optical lab, and access to Kodak technical experts, I'd be horrified if Leica didn't know more about the problem than I did.

 

However, what appears lacking on Leica's part is not knowledge, it's commitment to fixing the problem, and openness towards their customers.

 

I would strongly urge Leica shared some of their knowledge of this issue with the community.

 

Sandy

[photolandscape]

Given that Leica have a (very) complete optical lab, and access to Kodak technical experts, I'd be horrified if Leica didn't know more about the problem than I did.

 

However, what appears lacking on Leica's part is not knowledge, it's commitment to fixing the problem, and openness towards their customers.

 

I would strongly urge Leica shared some of their knowledge of this issue with the community.

 

Sandy

 

Update from the originator of the thread: Leica in New Jersey received my M9 and three lenses last Tuesday. I spoke to them and they suggested they would have some sort of preliminary diagnosis as early as tomorrow. I'll post as soon as I know more.

 

In the meantime I want my M9 to perform on the same level as Hoppyman's--his M9 produces the ideal when it comes to red edging--none or very, very little.

 

More to come.

[jaapv]

Jaap, I see some reasoned discussion and opinion in the thread and useful illustrations. showing the presence and absence of this issue with different equipment and circumstances. I think that those are worthwhile.

So do I - I was just referring to one or two posts - not to the problem as experienced by a number of users.

[parsod]

I did try the Elmar 24 f/3.8 with manual setting 28 f/2.8 11809 on my M9 this weekend and I must say it works much better, at least for my combination of camera end lens, than shooting it as coded. There are some traces of red edges in a few snow scenes but much less than before and it also requires much less adjustment in PP. I think this is in line with Sean Reids findings regarding some lenses on the M9 where his analysis is that the software seems to over adjust for cyan drift and thus shifting over to red. He also recommends to experiment with other settings if having these problems. I think using 28 f/2.8 11809 could be a good starting point for the Elmar 24 if you have this issue.

 

/Paer

 

Btw the Elmar 24 is really a spectacular lens. By far the best 24 I have ever used:)

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[wlaidlaw]

It is the inconsistency of the issue which puzzles me. If it was the M9, you would expect one example to produce or not produce red edges on all wider lenses. However, I get quite noticeable red edges on the WATE but none at all on my 25/2.8 Biogon, where others have suffered quite badly. Whereas I don't expect Leica do do anything on firmware for the Biogon, I am a touch disappointed that there has been no action for the WATE. It is all very well saying you can correct the issue in post-processing but it is all time and effort.

 

Wilson