Are Leica deliberately UNDEPRICING M lenses

[Posto 6]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Following a recent thread, I have been looking at completed Leica M lens prices on Ebay. Very surprsingly, this leads to the conclusion that Leica are underpricing by quite a significant margin their new M-lenses. In many cases, previous versions sell for more than list of later models (look at non-asph Summilux 50's). Although demand may be strong at the moment, this also means that Leica are unnecessarily handicapping themselves in their market.

 

Unfortunate as it may be to have to pay more for Leica lenses, at least if these high prices are paid to Leica rather than resellers, it becomes more likely that we will continue to be able to buy new glass from Leica in the future!

[masjah]

Perhaps it's not so much a question of Leica's underpricing of new lenses, as of the s/h market overpricing s/h lenses? (Well, high pricing really, since the s/h market will find its own level.) Perhaps all these purchasers of M9 bodies, who can't get new lenses for love nor money, are turning to the s/h market?

[Clearlight]

Or idiot bidding on eBay.

[ho_co]

Shhhh! Don't give them any ideas!

 

If they priced the new ones high enough, do you suppose they could drive the used market out of business?

[Posto 6]

Maybe Leica should try selling their demos and returns on Ebay, as Canon (UK) do - if the market is out of line. Otherwise, I supect that prices will have to rise, regrettably for those of us on the buy-side.

[lct]

Rolls Royce is underpricing its cars as well. Could be as expensive as jetplanes with a little effort.

[Posto 6]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Nah! the current Royces are BMW- based as far as engines and electronics are concerned, with lots of fibreglass body panels- They are not real Rolls-Royces- more like a Panasonic-built R10 would be.

 

Leica have at least tried to stick to their roots, and deserve the market's support.

[UliWer]

The idea, that Leica lenses (or anything else by Leica...) might be underpriced, is a funny contrast to common understanding about this brand. Therefore I think the idea is interesting.

 

I could imagine some people at Solms looking at the sales data of their M-Summarit line, comparing them with the Summilux priceses and say: "Those Summarits are just underpriced, If we'd charge much more, we'd sell many more."

 

Though we might look at Voigtlaender and Zeiss prices as well. There is such a big gap between theirs and the Leica prices that they might double (Voigtlander) or considerably increase (Zeiss) theirs, without having a disadvantage. They don't. I think Zeiss is still giving clandestine rebates.

 

I don't think that the price system for lenses is a result of some marketing people dreaming over the weekend. It's a very rigid and sensitive system which nobody would hazardously shake in it's structure.

[adan]

I guess I question the original premise, to some extent:

 

Price for a new Leica Summilux-M 50mm ex. B&H: $3,695

 

The most expensive "previous version" lenses on Ebay are about $3,000 - and that is for special finishes: chrome, black paint, titanium, gold.

 

There are a couple of silver-chrome current 50 ASPHs going for $4,000-$5,000, which is probably a "rarity" factor. Leica simply didn't produce ANY 50 f/1.4 lenses for 6 months or so. They are still just trickling onto the market now. Some folks will pay extra to jump to the head of the Q.

 

Rarity also plays into the pre-ASPH pricing. The very last version with focus to 0.7 meters and sliding lens shade was only made for a couple of years, so if one wants those specific features, they are hard to come by.

 

But a black-chrome lens of that nature is still less than half the price of a new list-price black 50 (if you can find one) - $1,700 vs $3,695.

 

Now - many current lenses today sell for more used than they did new 6-7 years ago. That's mostly due to the dollar collapse plus Leica's decision to raise prices to a profitable level.

 

Leica was selling them too cheaply BACK THEN ($1,995 for a 50 Summilux or 90 f/2 or 24 f/2.8 in 2003, $1,395 for a 90 f/2.8, $900 for a collapsible 50 Elmar f/2.8)

 

There are other factors; Hong Kong dealers seem to be cornering the market on 75 Summiluxes, so those prices are going up, up, up with no competition

[farnz]

As with any commodity, the price is what the free market will bear.

 

The used Leica lens market is high at the moment because new Leica lenses are currently scarce so buyers are competing for used subtitutes rather than waiting for new lenses to become freely available again. Such is G.A.S.

 

Pete.

 

(Cross-posted with Andy.)

[MarkP]

As with any commodity, the price is what the free market will bear.

 

The used Leica lens market is high at the moment because new Leica lenses are currently scarce so buyers are competing for used subtitutes rather than waiting for new lenses to become freely available again. Such is G.A.S.

 

Pete.

 

Cross-posted with Andy.

 

I agree.

 

Supply and demand!

 

Mark

[Posto 6]

I guess I question the original premise, to some extent:

 

Price for a new Leica Summilux-M 50mm ex. B&H: $3,695

 

 

I agree that I hyped my premise in order to get discussion flowing. Nevertheless, looking at completed items in ebay, I can see the flwg sold plain vanilla pre-asph lenses:

Leica M 50mm f/1.4 Summilux - pre-ASPH - eBay (item 120644800886 end time Nov-13-10 11:01:15 PST) - $2200

LEICA SUMMILUX M 50mm f/1.4 E46 Exc+ - eBay (item 380285989543 end time Nov-07-10 04:00:41 PST) $2248

Leica Summilux-M 50mm f/1.4 50/1.4 Pre-ASPH Black - eBay (item 160501339465 end time Nov-05-10 22:42:34 PDT) $2400

 

These prices seem much higher as a proportion of new current ones than, as far as I can remember, normally was the case. I may be mistaken, but I don't think that previous used models 10-15 years old used to go for close on 2/3 of the list price of updated new glass.

 

I have noticed, however, that more unusual (Summilux 21 and 24) lenses are not really holding their value, and suffer significant depreciation on Ebay.

[JBA]

Waiting for my underpriced Nocti 0.95 Asph.

[LuxBob]

Nah! the current Royces are BMW- based as far as engines and electronics are concerned, with lots of fibreglass body panels- They are not real Rolls-Royces- more like a Panasonic-built R10 would be.

 

Leica have at least tried to stick to their roots, and deserve the market's support.

 

If I were Leica I would say that i had chosen the right price point and all I woudl need to do would be to get my production going.

OT. Not that I am in the market but I would not have a problem with a BM engine; well built, reliable, efficient especially if it provides the appropriate amount of power at the right points. Wasn't the previous engine based on an American V8 and that too was excellent.

[Posto 6]

Yes, it was based on the old Chrysler V8- still used by Bentley, by the way. But Rolls-Royces, like Leicas, were renowned for well-engineered durability, not short-term performance. There was no need to replace them that often, unless one wanted the latest shape- and they were extremely robust, and very different conceptually from a BMW. Like Leica, almost over-engineered without too much regard to cost- while BMW cars are engineered for performance (easily superseded) and normal market terms of ownership and use (they last and get superseded on pretty much the same basis as all other brands). Unfortunately,new Royces are an exercise in packaging this with a contrived cachet and exclusivity to get a higher price- pretty much like a Panasonic Leica is.

[Guest BigSplash]

I would hope that Leica price all of their products to the value that the market will stand and at the same time meet their maximum production volume targets. If only a few lenses such as 35mm lux or 50mm lux or the Nocti are shipping it is obvious that dealers and ebay will jump on the opportunity to over price the few that are available.....

 

I think it would be inappropriate for Leica to capitalise on a situation that is somwhat of their own making and push the price up for a short time until they are shipping normally. In fact they should be stopping / discouraging their dealers of such practises as Jaguar cars have done in years gone by.

 

The real question for me is what happens when the lenses are shipping in volume and are sitting on dealers shelves? Does anyone think that deals maybe forthcoming say after the Christmas rush for hard to get lenses and the M9?

[adan]

I'd say that between M lenses, the M9, and the S2 system (and maybe the X1 - I stay very out of touch with that line ), Leica probably has plenty of work for everyone through most of 2011.

 

The first sign that orders are dropping to meet capacity will be that Leica forgoes their usual annual (sometime semi-annual) price increase. About 6 months after that (if needed), they may offer rebates, rather than cut prices. (Otherwise dealers are left holding the bag on lenses they bought high and are now forced to sell low - a $500 price cut can wipe out the dealer markup on one lens).

 

As I recall, the M8/M8.2 got some rebate action in their final 6 months of production. The last lens rebates I remember pre-dated the M8 altogether - prices have either gone up or gone MORE up for the past 5 years!.

 

So I'd say - watch Jan. 1 or April 1, 2011 (FY). No price increase will be the tip-off that there MAY be rebates in 6 months or so. Or not.

[Xmas]

Hi

 

If they are (were) not making (some of them) them it does not matter what the list price is (or was).

 

If they increased the list price and they were not making them that would not be good marketing?

 

ZM and CV lenses are going up, new ones one presumes is the yen hardening, 2nd hand tracking Yen exchange as a % and shortage of 2nd hand, cause of supply and demand.

 

The preasph lux is a nice lens.

 

Noel