wlaidlaw Posted January 17, 2017 Share #941 Posted January 17, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello Wilson, In your Post just above: I think that there might be a typographical error. I think what was written as "tar" in Summitar should have been "cron" for Summicron. Best Regards, Michael Michael, I was being distracted by my wife asking questions about various potential Swiss resorts for her skiing holiday next month, which lead to the typo. You are of course correct, it is the 11619 Silver Chrome Series V e39 Anniversary Summicron in LTM, made principally for the Japanese collector market in 1999. I am not sure what anniversary, as I don't think the first Summicrons appeared until 1953 or late 1952 at the earliest. Maybe it was the 20th anniversary of that series Summicron which first appeared in 1979. I am never sure whether it it series IV or V. I supposed it depends on whether you call the Collapsible and early Rigid Summicrons, two different series. I got it last year at a very reasonable price. It was advertised on eBay Japan only. I persuaded the seller to sell it overseas. One sold recently from Westlicht at over 50% more than I paid and mine is absolutely mint. The only collector issue is that the box and paperwork are missing but as I have bought it to use not to fondle, that does not worry me at all. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Hi wlaidlaw, Take a look here LTM users, its time to stand up and be counted!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Michael Geschlecht Posted January 17, 2017 Share #942 Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) Hello Wilson, There were early Summicrons of the collapsible screw mount variety as early as 1950 which were marked " Summitar* " . Regular production in collapsible screw mount marked " Summicron " began in 1951. Bayonet versions of the collapsible Summicron for the M3 began in 1954. The lens that you have which was made in screw mount in 1999 was the same optical version which began production in 1979 & is still being produced today. By the way, what does your's look like? Best Regards, Michael Edited January 17, 2017 by Michael Geschlecht Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 17, 2017 Share #943 Posted January 17, 2017 Michael, I have a Summitar, which my father bought new in Brooklyn in 1953 with his IIF. It is the later model one with the bowed hex diaphragm, similar to the Summar diaphragm (probably identical, as the rumour was that Leica found over 2000 new and unused Summar diaphragms in a warehouse in the early 1950's, so decided to use them up). Given how soft it is wide open and mine is in beautiful condition, with no fungus, fogging or even cleaning marks, I don't feel it is a Summicron. My father never liked it much as it tends to give a distinctly blue tint on colour reversal film and stuck to his earlier Summar on his IIIA, which he had coated in the Netherlands, post war, with a purple Zeiss like coating. The IIF and Summitar have spent almost all their lives sitting in a drawer, hence their condition. Below is a photo of the 1999 11819 LTM Summicron on my Reid & Sigrist Model III Mk.2 (a IIIB clone). Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/13639-ltm-users-its-time-to-stand-up-and-be-counted/?do=findComment&comment=3188529'>More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted January 18, 2017 Share #944 Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) Hello Wilson, Interesting story. The Summitars that were early Summicrons were marked with a " * " following the word " Summitar " so the the ring said " Summitar * ". Not just " Summitar " . Also, when the optically current Summicron lens (11819) was delivered with a screw mount in 1999 it was designated 11619. Best Regards, Michael Edited January 18, 2017 by Michael Geschlecht Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 18, 2017 Share #945 Posted January 18, 2017 Michael, No star after my Summitar, which is no surprise. I was fairly sure it could not be a Summicron. I have a contemporaneous Canon 5cm f1.8 in LTM, which is a better all round performer than my Summitar, with more neutral colour reproduction and superior resolution. I would guess the Cannon would be about on a par with a collapsible Summicron. I suspect the Summitar may have been last year's stock when bought by my father in 1953. Even for business travellers from the UK in 1953, exchange control limits were very tight and I would think my father had to negotiate hard to buy both the IIF, Summitar and Super Ikonta B within his budget. Cunard made a substantial contribution, after my father and uncle's luggage was broken into on board and two of my grandfather's cameras, which they had intended to sell in New York, were stolen. On a different point, I was trying my recently acquired 5cm Hektor on the SL, trying to judge how extensive its service needed to be. There was a real problem getting it mounted on the M to TL adapter. If I used my normal Rayqual type 2 non-cutaway 50/75 ring, which is coded as a series IV/V Summicron (100001), the infinity lock plunger will not allow the helicoid to quite reach infinity. If I use a type 1 Leitz 50/75 ring, with the cutaway to clear the infinity lock, I get the "no lens detected" message. Any ideas of a solution for this? Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/13639-ltm-users-its-time-to-stand-up-and-be-counted/?do=findComment&comment=3188721'>More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted January 18, 2017 Share #946 Posted January 18, 2017 Wilson, Kipon makes LTM-M adapters that are cut out only in the 7:00 o'clock area and solid where the 6-bit reader is. They are also milled on the back for coding pits. This one is in black, but they are also in silver. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/13639-ltm-users-its-time-to-stand-up-and-be-counted/?do=findComment&comment=3188938'>More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 18, 2017 Share #947 Posted January 18, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Tom, I will wait until I get my Hektor back from Cameraworks and measure it against the Leitz 50/75 ring, to see if the Kipon ring will work. The infinity lock is in a slightly different place radially to that on my Summitar and Serenar lenses and the button has to be depressed quite a long way to unlock it. I may just have to accept that this is not a lens to be used on anything other than LTM cameras. It is not as if I am short of alternative M or LTM fit 50mm/5cm lenses, with in LTM fit: 3 Elmars, Summitar and Summicron and in M fit: ZM Planar and an 0.95 Noctilux. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted January 18, 2017 Share #948 Posted January 18, 2017 Wilson, Yes, there are a lot of variations on infinity locks. There are the 11:00 early versions, and the Russian copies tend to be a 9:00 and also won't work with adapters. But then the focusing on my Russian lenses isn't correct on Leica anyway, though fine on the Russian bodies. I can use some on my A7 with an LTM to A7 direct adapter, but had to turn the O.D. of the LTM boss down to the same as an LTM body mount so the locks would clear. The original adapter OD was the same as an M mount, so the same lock problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted January 18, 2017 Share #949 Posted January 18, 2017 I touched on these adaptor issues/problems in my recent review of the rigid Summar, which is contemporary with your Hektor. I have a Hektor similar to yours and I have tested it successfully some time ago on my M240. I have a number of adaptors and will see what works and report back here. In general, a cutaway adaptor will allow full use of the infinity lock but some of the infinity locks from the early 30s are, however, quite finicky to use. When I recently used the cutaway adaptor with the rigid Summar, I did not get the 'no lens detected' message. I may have made some menu alterations for this sometime back but, if I did, I have forgotten what it is now. I will report back on the Hektor situation. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted January 18, 2017 Share #950 Posted January 18, 2017 Times ago when I was confronted at this kind of problem, I unlock the infinity lock before to screw the lens completely on the adaptor Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 18, 2017 Share #951 Posted January 18, 2017 Times ago when I was confronted at this kind of problem, I unlock the infinity lock before to screw the lens completely on the adaptor JC but then you cannot focus the lens to infinity and I wanted to check infinity RF against optical focus with the Hektor on my SL, using the edge of the moon. Even when screwed onto the Rayqual ring, with the Hektor not locked into infinity, which is what I did, you cannot then rotate the lens to infinity, as the plunger tries to depress, as you hit the edge of the latch and on the Hektor the plunger is so close to the adapter ring, that it will not depress far enough to engage in the infinity latch. There is more clearance on my Summitar and Serenar, and they will lock into the infinity latch even when on the Rayqual 50/75 ring and can be screwed onto the ring with the lens latched into infinity. This is all a bit difficult to explain but I hope you see what I mean Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted January 19, 2017 Share #952 Posted January 19, 2017 Wilson I understand easily and I was not focused to the infinity so far to be on the edge of the moon as my aim is about street views so the only way is to mill the adapter (or I am taking an another short cut ?) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 19, 2017 Share #953 Posted January 19, 2017 JC, The very easy answer is to use another lens. I am sure Alan Starkie will check the infinity of the Hektor when he services it. I thought folks might be interested in seeing Alan's photo of the current status of my Model III. In the end due to various problems, some corrosion on the top plate and bodged previous paint repairs, I have decided to go for a total repaint. Alan's repaints are I would say, museum quality and include hand filling of the engraving. Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/13639-ltm-users-its-time-to-stand-up-and-be-counted/?do=findComment&comment=3190966'>More sharing options...
Guest JMF Posted January 19, 2017 Share #954 Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) IIIg & 5cm Hektor by JM__, on Flickr IIIg & 5cm Hektor by JM__, on Flickr IIIg no Jardim Botânico by JM__, on Flickr Back soon with some color neg results from this combo (shots taken with a 5cm Nikkor 1.1 on SL 601) ! Cheers, JM Edited January 19, 2017 by JMF Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRTEE Posted January 20, 2017 Share #955 Posted January 20, 2017 Very nice to see your iii dismantled. Would love to see some pics of the finished job. My own leica iii BP is in great fettle. But always good to know where to send it for a quality renovation. Thanks Tony. JC, The very easy answer is to use another lens. I am sure Alan Starkie will check the infinity of the Hektor when he services it. I thought folks might be interested in seeing Alan's photo of the current status of my Model III. In the end due to various problems, some corrosion on the top plate and bodged previous paint repairs, I have decided to go for a total repaint. Alan's repaints are I would say, museum quality and include hand filling of the engraving. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 20, 2017 Share #956 Posted January 20, 2017 Very nice to see your iii dismantled. Would love to see some pics of the finished job. My own leica iii BP is in great fettle. But always good to know where to send it for a quality renovation. Thanks Tony. It was very good news to learn about Alan. With it looking like Peter at CRR may have stopped and Malcolm Taylor near retirement age (or beyond), I feared we were running out of expert Leica repairers in the UK. Alan really does know what he is talking about and doing. The photographs I have seen of his work look better than when the camera first poked its head out of the door in Wetzlar. When I get the I© and III back from him, I am going to send him my Reid and Sigrist, to see if he can restore the flash connections. I fear maybe not, as the camera was a works mule at R&S and may never have had the connections. The holes in the front of the camera are devoid of any evidence of the special PC connectors ever having been there. It also needs three of the four screws in the flash shoe replacing, as someone in the past, has used Leica flash shoe metric screws rather than the British 8BA screws. The metric screws are too small diameter and too short. I cannot find the correct 8BA screws, countersunk but with slightly domed heads (correctly termed oval head machine screws). Wilson 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted January 20, 2017 Share #957 Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) Michael, No star after my Summitar, which is no surprise. I was fairly sure it could not be a Summicron. I have a contemporaneous Canon 5cm f1.8 in LTM, which is a better all round performer than my Summitar, with more neutral colour reproduction and superior resolution. I would guess the Cannon would be about on a par with a collapsible Summicron. I suspect the Summitar may have been last year's stock when bought by my father in 1953. Even for business travellers from the UK in 1953, exchange control limits were very tight and I would think my father had to negotiate hard to buy both the IIF, Summitar and Super Ikonta B within his budget. Cunard made a substantial contribution, after my father and uncle's luggage was broken into on board and two of my grandfather's cameras, which they had intended to sell in New York, were stolen. On a different point, I was trying my recently acquired 5cm Hektor on the SL, trying to judge how extensive its service needed to be. There was a real problem getting it mounted on the M to TL adapter. If I used my normal Rayqual type 2 non-cutaway 50/75 ring, which is coded as a series IV/V Summicron (100001), the infinity lock plunger will not allow the helicoid to quite reach infinity. If I use a type 1 Leitz 50/75 ring, with the cutaway to clear the infinity lock, I get the "no lens detected" message. Any ideas of a solution for this? Wilson I use a 2.8-5cm adaptor with cutaway made by Leica which partially covers the code reader on the M240 but does not give a 'no lens attached' message. It allows full and free use the infinity lock on LTM lenses. I have used it successfully with the Rigid Summar, the 5cm Hektor and the original LTM 2.8cm f5.6 Summaron. With the last named lens it does not bring up the 28mm frame lines on the M240, but I can use the full RF viewfinder or a supplementary viewfinder. I can post a picture of the adaptor if anyone is interested. William Edited January 20, 2017 by willeica Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted January 20, 2017 Share #958 Posted January 20, 2017 Easy Loading LTM! After the M3 introduction the clone makers scrambled to make their offerings more acceptable. Nicca had been making faithful copies of the Leica III, and made several updates. A later one was this easy loading model (I believe type 5L) which is like a Leica IIIf, with a few obvious differences: Back loading door like an M3 Lever wind (on a IIIf sized body!) Top speed of 1/500. Nicca is the only clone I've found that can use standard Leica reloadable film cassettes, and also offered their own branded version that works in Leica. This one was sold in the USA, and so had the Tower branding of Sears, their US distributor. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I also have a Nicca 33, which has lever wind and improved finder (bright line), but no back door. There are also some interesting innovations in later Leotax and Tannack bodies, which I'll post if anyone has interest. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I also have a Nicca 33, which has lever wind and improved finder (bright line), but no back door. There are also some interesting innovations in later Leotax and Tannack bodies, which I'll post if anyone has interest. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/13639-ltm-users-its-time-to-stand-up-and-be-counted/?do=findComment&comment=3192491'>More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted January 20, 2017 Share #959 Posted January 20, 2017 Here's the front of the Nicca 5L. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! It also has a magnified rangefinder like the IIIf, but on this sample the split image is dim. I think I'll see if Youxin can put in a new beam splitter. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! It also has a magnified rangefinder like the IIIf, but on this sample the split image is dim. I think I'll see if Youxin can put in a new beam splitter. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/13639-ltm-users-its-time-to-stand-up-and-be-counted/?do=findComment&comment=3192498'>More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 20, 2017 Share #960 Posted January 20, 2017 I use a 2.8-5cm adaptor with cutaway made by Leica which partially covers the code reader on the M240 but does not give a 'no lens attached' message. It allows full and free use the infinity lock on LTM lenses. I have used it successfully with the Rigid Summar, the 5cm Hektor and the original LTM 2.8cm f5.6 Summaron. With the last named lens it does not bring up the 28mm frame lines on the M240, but I can use the full RF viewfinder or a supplementary viewfinder. I can post a picture of the adaptor if anyone is interested. William The M to T/L adapter on the SL seems fussier with the "no lens detected" than even the M240. Amongst my various LTM/M adapter rings, I have one similar to the Kipon, with a cut out but which has a very narrow band of coding pits. This works fine on the M240 but gives the "no lens detected" message on the M to T/L adapter. I am not too fussed about not being able to use the Hektor on either the SL or M240, given that I have plenty of 50mm alternatives. I just wanted to check that it was focusing to infinity at the lock position and its current performance as a base line before the service (reasonable resolution but a lot of flare wide open, even with a FIKUS hood). As Alan will ensure correct focus to RF cam position prior to return, it is no longer a priority to mount it either on my M240 or SL. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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