Camera design

[jrc]

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All the arguments the past few days about frameline accuracy, cyan corners, magenta, etc., got me thinking about what I would do if my last name were Nikon or Pentax, other than buy a Ferrari.

 

The ideal camera would be:

 

Compact. Half the size and weight of a top-end Nikon or Canon; about the size of a Leica. Weatherproofed.

 

A DSLR for framing accuracy, long-lens and macro work, but perhaps of a newer design without a big powerful mirror. Maybe an non-through-the-lens EVF with automatic parallax control?

 

In-body image stabilization (to keep lenses small.)

 

16mp, 4:3 aspect -- a chip no longer than the Leica's, but somewhat taller.

 

New lenses made for digital and as compact as Leica's.

 

A wide zoom as good as Nikon's 12mm, and at least three more to cover the distance out to 500. A half-dozen very fast primes & macros.

 

The 4/3 system is something like this, but with one big problem: they picked the wrong-sized chip and are now squeezed between resolution, noise, and ISO. I think it will kill them, unless Kodak can work some serious magic with these offset lenses for the sensors, as with the M8. If 4/3 could work with a 1.3-sized 16mp chip, I would buy it.

 

The Pentax system is also very close, but the chip is not good enough, and most of the lenses available for Pentax are big legacy-35mm-size things. But the Pentax system has promise, if it doesn't go TU. They need to add new compact zooms to their new set of pancake lenses.

 

JC

[Bob Ross]

Hi John,

The 4/3rds standard is limited to the 13mm X 17mm size, but to get a bit of a glimps of the future, take a look at the images from the Oly's E-400 10MP sensor (KAI-10100). What I have seen so far is interesting, considering it is an entry level model. Since the M8's sensor is sort of two 4/3rds sensors joined along the long side, if Kodak followed form with the E-400's sensor, we'd get 20MP for a future M.

Bob

[gtmerideth]

John,

 

the V-Lux 1 doesn't meet all of your desires but is headed in the right direction.

g.

[woodyspedden]

John,

 

the V-Lux 1 doesn't meet all of your desires but is headed in the right direction.

g.

 

However none of these meet the main criterion........i.e. can fully utilize the fantastic M lenses. These lenses are the lynchpin of the LEICA world. Some of us have accrued these very expensive lenses over a long period of time and now want their unbelievable qualities in the digital world.

 

So for us, designing a new system, no matter how good and innovative, doesn' t cut it. We need the successor to the venerable M line in the new digital reality. That is why I believe the M8 Is a great product no matter the issues which have to be fixed. I have over 10 lenses worth more than $25K that can produce phenomenal images and I don't intend nor can afford to replicate this investment in yet another new approach to the problems.

 

Le's encourage Leica to fix what is wrong with the current M8 and when that job is complete let's see where we are. I won't downplay what is wrong with the current M8 but I am absolutely sure that the amount of things it does right makes the Leica investment to date on the right track. If Leica fixes these things they acknowledged to be flawed we will have a tool with no apologies needed.

 

Shoot me for being a Leica apologist if you will but I love what I have in my hands and with the major problems resolved, this will be a tool for the ages./

 

So there....I am done and dead now

 

Woody Spedden

[Guest stnami]

So for us, designing a new system, no matter how good and innovative, doesn' t cut it. We need the successor to the venerable M line in the new digital reality.

... who is us or do you mean yourself ?

Maybe you didn't notice but there are others in the world that want to see Leica stay, meaning a change in direction from the current M is acceptable or even welcomed. Sure have your M with your lenses but there is also a whole new market out there who do not have Leica lenses.

I teach/tutor 16-22 year olds and many of these students have never used film except for a couple of happy snaps as kids, they are keen but they are digital. Yes they know about leica but they want a camera of today not shackled to yesterday, remember there are not enough old lenses to go around, Sure some of my students love to use film as well but they are the minority.

[Guest malland]

I'm with Stnami on this: although I have a whole range of Leica-M lenses and two M6s, I think it would be better for Leica not to shackle itself to digital bodies for legacy lenses. There is a much larger market, among people who don't shoot with Leicas, for innovative cameras with new Leica lenses.

 

In July I bought my first digital camera, the Ricoh GR-D, which, in my view, is the camera that Leica would have designed were they an innovative company with adequate R&D resources — two big "ifs". Last month I bought the Leica D-Lux 3 because I wanted to be able to shoot at 40-50mm equivalent rather than being limited to the 21mm- and 28nn-equivalent focal lenths of the GR-D.

 

These two small-sensor cameras are technological marvels; and I agree with Sean Reid who writes on his website that small-sensor cameras are a new format, characterized by huge depth of field and a grainy look, the way 35mm cameras were a new format when the first Leica were produced. These are not simply toys. The trouble is that most of the small sensor cameras are for the mass market, but the GR-D and D-Lux 3 point in a different direction for serious photographers.

 

The problem with the M8, for me, is that, going by Sean Reid's reviews, it produces a "medium format look" at speeds up through ISO 640 — but I like the "35mm aesthetic" which means that I would have to shoot at ISO 1250 and 2500 to get the look that I want because I want the directness of not having artificially add grain in post-processing, although I do a lot in post-processing (mainly what I would do in the darkroom). In this respect I'm going against the general trend of people looking at the M8, which is to complain that it's files are too noisy at higher ISOs in comparison with the Canon 5D.

 

To get the look that I want I've embraced the concept of small-sensor cameras, which also have the benefit because of their small size and handling characteristics of encouraging and facilitating (framing with the LCD monitor) a more "fluid" and "looser" shooting style that I like.

 

—Mitch/Johannesburg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/

[Riley]

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M8/2 ?

 

im not sure you could compare some of the point and shoots with a rangefinder design

particularly when they are not exactly cheap options for what they are

 

so an econo RF (why else would you do this but to save $) would best be a larger sensor and use new glass, as there are more benefits per $. With the 2/3" sensor looking all but dead, the gap between APS C and the Fuji 1/1.7" has only the four thirds sensor in place. Add to that there is also a small range of lenses, all of them new, non of them really fast. Many older lenses can be made to work with varying degrees of succes.

 

With FT currently inhabiting iso800 and pressing for 1600, this would satisfy most shooters, as only 4% of users regularly use iso3200. While half an M8 sensor would be just 5Mp, more ordinary FT sensors are at 7.5 and 8Mp.

 

A simplified dSLR chassis, without the mirror box or a prism would keep the cost and parts count down, but perhaps a new chassis is best, with somewhat of a turret at the lens to keep the body thin. Live view as in any point and shoot would be desirable, as this would appeal to many upgrading users who are perhaps disenfranchised by dSLRs, and without any quality options from the gamut of point and shoots presently fielded. This then would mean TTL flash too, probably Olympus.

 

The solutions you need to think about are these:

• Given the FT lenses incorporate AF, is that to be incorporated with manual overide operated from an optical finder ?
   
  
• What then happens with zoom lenses and an optical finder? The solution would be complex and unique.
   
  
• What about speed aperture control ? To separate this camera from P&S elsewhere, the arrangement on D2 is most desirable. This is after all a camera that could in a pinch offer pro users with an alternate carry camera. As much as I detest the nomenclature a semi-pro camera. Yet to achieve this you need to place the aperture ring on the turret, as FT lenses, other than Leica D dont have aperture rings. Aperture control then would be fly-by-wire
  

 

So the top deck layout can be quite simple, a speed control and shutter release from D3, hotshoe from Olympus on the centreline above the lens mount, iso wheel on the left. Rangefinder below situated left, with aux RF lens system far to the right, when seen from the back. Entirely conventional.

 

I dont think this is fantasyland, either Leica, Olympus or Panasonic could do much of this from existing parts bins. It is a logical product to fill the gap soon to be left by the withdrawel of the Epson. And a desirable kit for either pro dSLR users, FT owners requiring a 'B' body, P&S users looking for a more challenging upgrade, travelers looking for lightweight quality equipment. It broadens the scope of FT equipment options and makes a partisan statement that endears the idea that photography is fun.

[khun_k]

M8/2 ?

 

im not sure you could compare some of the point and shoots with a rangefinder design

particularly when they are not exactly cheap options for what they are

 

so an econo RF (why else would you do this but to save $) would best be a larger sensor and use new glass, as there are more benefits per $. With the 2/3" sensor looking all but dead, the gap between APS C and the Fuji 1/1.7" has only the four thirds sensor in place. Add to that there is also a small range of lenses, all of them new, non of them really fast. Many older lenses can be made to work with varying degrees of succes.

 

With FT currently inhabiting iso800 and pressing for 1600, this would satisfy most shooters, as only 4% of users regularly use iso3200. While half an M8 sensor would be just 5Mp, more ordinary FT sensors are at 7.5 and 8Mp.

 

A simplified dSLR chassis, without the mirror box or a prism would keep the cost and parts count down, but perhaps a new chassis is best, with somewhat of a turret at the lens to keep the body thin. Live view as in any point and shoot would be desirable, as this would appeal to many upgrading users who are perhaps disenfranchised by dSLRs, and without any quality options from the gamut of point and shoots presently fielded. This then would mean TTL flash too, probably Olympus.

 

The solutions you need to think about are these:

• Given the FT lenses incorporate AF, is that to be incorporated with manual overide operated from an optical finder ?
   
  
• What then happens with zoom lenses and an optical finder? The solution would be complex and unique.
   
  
• What about speed aperture control ? To separate this camera from P&S elsewhere, the arrangement on D2 is most desirable. This is after all a camera that could in a pinch offer pro users with an alternate carry camera. As much as I detest the nomenclature a semi-pro camera. Yet to achieve this you need to place the aperture ring on the turret, as FT lenses, other than Leica D dont have aperture rings. Aperture control then would be fly-by-wire
  

 

So the top deck layout can be quite simple, a speed control and shutter release from D3, hotshoe from Olympus on the centreline above the lens mount, iso wheel on the left. Rangefinder below situated left, with aux RF lens system far to the right, when seen from the back. Entirely conventional.

 

I dont think this is fantasyland, either Leica, Olympus or Panasonic could do much of this from existing parts bins. It is a logical product to fill the gap soon to be left by the withdrawel of the Epson. And a desirable kit for either pro dSLR users, FT owners requiring a 'B' body, P&S users looking for a more challenging upgrade, travelers looking for lightweight quality equipment. It broadens the scope of FT equipment options and makes a partisan statement that endears the idea that photography is fun.

 

I agreed. I think the question is more about the architecture of the camera rather than the design of the camera. Design is more related to ergonomic, user-friendliness and so on. To me, M8 is re-approved of what was essential a camera should be. Simple, elegant, easy to use, and almost anyone can use it.

[jaapv]

Caps lock stuck, Woody??

[woodyspedden]

... who is us or do you mean yourself ?

Maybe you didn't notice but there are others in the world that want to see Leica stay, meaning a change in direction from the current M is acceptable or even welcomed. Sure have your M with your lenses but there is also a whole new market out there who do not have Leica lenses.

I teach/tutor 16-22 year olds and many of these students have never used film except for a couple of happy snaps as kids, they are keen but they are digital. Yes they know about leica but they want a camera of today not shackled to yesterday, remember there are not enough old lenses to go around, Sure some of my students love to use film as well but they are the minority.

 

"US" ARE THOSE WHO HAVE SHOT M'S FOR YEARS AND ACCUMULATED MANY LENSES. MOST WHO HAVE SHOT WITH THE M SERIES DID SO MORE FOR THE QUALITY OF LENSES THAN FOR THE BODIES. THE BODIES HAVE ALWAYS HAD ISSUES E.G. 1/1000 MINIMUM SHUTTER SPEED, FRAGILE CLOTH SHUTTER, ETC. BUT THE BODIES WERE MADE TO LAST FOREVER AND OVERALL WERE A PRIZE. BUT IT WAS ALL ABOUT THE LENSES. EVER SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE DIGITAL REVOLUTION THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR A DIGITAL M AND HAVE BEEN ENCOURAGING LEICA TO BUILD IT.

 

NOW I RECOGNIZE THAT THOSE NEW TO LEICA DON'T HAVE AN INVESTMENT IN M LENSES ALREADY. SO FOR YOU FOLKS IT MAY NOT BE SO IMPORTANT TO BUILD A DIGITAL VERSION OF THE M. (ALTHOUGH I BELIEVE IF YOU CAREFULLY EXAMINE IMAGES TAKEN WITH M LENSES YOU MAY BECOME A CONVERT) LEICA ALREADY HAS THE DMR FOR THOSE WHO WANT A DSLR, AND THE 4/3 CAMERAS NOW COMING TO MARKET. I SUSPECT THAT BY PHOTOKINA 2008 THERE WILL BE A FULL FRAME R10, OR WHATEVER THEY WILL CALL IT, WHICH CONTINUES TO USE THE GREAT R LENSES (NOT QUITE UP TO THE M LENSES BUT CLOSE) AND IMPROVES ON THE FEW ISSUES WITH THE DMR.

 

SO, WITH RESPECT FOR YOUR COMMENTS, I BELIEVE THE DECISISON TO BUILD THE DIGITAL M WAS A WISE ONE. I AGREE THAT THERE ARE ISSUES WITH THE M8 AND LEICA ARE DOING A GOOD JOB OF ADDRESSING THEM. IT IS CLEAR THAT LEICA DO NOT HAVE THE ELECTRONICS EXPERTISE OF THE JAPANESE AND SOME OF THESE MISTAKES ARE DUE TO THIS LACK OF EXPERIENCE, NOT DUE TO THE DECISION TO BUILD THE M8. LEICA NEEDS TO DEVELOP A PARTNERSHIP WITH SOMEONE LIKE PHASE ONE TO ASSURE THAT ALL OF THEIR NEW PRODUCTS, NOT JUST THE M8, COME TO MARKET READY AND ABLE TO COMPETE IN THIS NOW DIGITAL WORLD.

 

WITH RESPECT TO YOUR STUDENTS, LIKE ALL OF US THEY WILL HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL THEY HAVE ACCUMULATED SOME RESOURCES TO GET INTO THE 'REAL" LEICA WORLD. LEICA HAS ALWAYS BEEN AT THE EXTREME END OF EXPENSIVE PRODUCTS AND LIKELY TO REMAIN SO. WHILE WAITING FOR THAT TIME, THE STUDENTS, LIKE THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE, WILL HAVE TO MAKE DO WITH OTHER PRODUCTS. IF THEY WANT A LEAST A PIECE OF LEICA IN THE EQUATION THEY CAN GO WITH THE PANASONIC PRODUCTS AND THEIR LEICA LENSES. THIS GETS THEM A SMALL, LIGHTWEIGHT DSLR WITH MANY OF THE GOOD JAPANESE DESIGN FEATURES.

 

A COMPANY OF LEICA'S SIZE AND CULTURE CANNOT COMPETE WITH THE JAPANESE COMPANIES. THEY BUILT THEIR REPUTATION BASED ON THEIR MECHANICAL AND OPTICAL EXPERTISE AND BY APPEALING TO BUYERS WHO WERE WILLING TO PAY FOR WHAT THEY PERCEIVED AS ULTIMATE IMAGE QUALITY FROM THE 135 FORMAT. IF IT IS NECESSARY TO COMPETE WITH THE JAPANESE IN ORDER TO SURVIVE IN THIS NEW DIGITAL WORLD THEN I SUSPECT THEY WILL BE ACQUIRED. I HOPE THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN BECAUSE I CONTINUE TO BELIEVE THEY BUILD A HIGHLY DIFFERENTIATED SET OF PRODUCTS WHICH HAVE VALUE. BUT WE WILL SEE.

 

JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION

 

WOODY SPEDDEN

[woodyspedden]

Caps lock stuck, Woody??

 

No Jaap. I just bought a new MacPro desktop and am using the standard Apple keyboard. I am used to the Microsoft curved keyboard and have severe arthritis in my hands. With the new keyboard I keep hitting the caps lock inadvertently. So I just kept on typing rather than continually going back to turn off the caps lock. Today I am going to purchase the Microsoft keyboard with a USB interface. (my old one used the old direct keyboard plug for the PC's)

 

As you can see, I can type without caps on but I must have gone back 5 or 6 times to turn it off.

 

I promise I will get better.

 

Woody Spedden

[larry]

So I guess all this means that one size doesn't fit all?

 

Larry

[sean_reid]

The problem with the M8, for me, is that, going by Sean Reid's reviews, it produces a "medium format look" at speeds up through ISO 640 — but I like the "35mm aesthetic" which means that I would have to shoot at ISO 1250 and 2500 to get the look that I want because I want the directness of not having artificially add grain in post-processing, although I do a lot in post-processing (mainly what I would do in the darkroom). In this respect I'm going against the general trend of people looking at the M8, which is to complain that it's files are too noisy at higher ISOs in comparison with the Canon 5D.

—Mitch/Johannesburg

Flickr: Photos from Mitch Alland

 

Hi Mitch,

 

You know my take on this. I think you might be surprised about how well that camera works for your work. Since we've both spent some time editing and discussing your pictures, you know that I mean *your* work. You could batch the grain in and not even look at the pictures till they're "grained" or shoot at high ISO and stop down a lot to get your deep DOF...or not <G>

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Bob Ross]

M8/2 ?

 

im not sure you could compare some of the point and shoots with a rangefinder design

particularly when they are not exactly cheap options for what they are

 

so an econo RF (why else would you do this but to save $)

Hi Riley,

The FT sensor does have good potential for a "Leica CL-D" and have enough of an image difference not to compete with the M class. I think it is generally accepted that Leica dropped the CL, because it was cutting into M sales and I doubt they would create a similar situation today. This might set the stage for another Asian Mfr. to create the Econo RF as you describe.

I have been pondering the possibility of an electronic equivalent to the opto-mechanical range finder. It would still be manually focused, but use elentronics to do the rangefinding. This would be a good deal cheaper to fabricate and if put into a plastic over metal body would make your Econo-RF idea a possibility in a varity of sensor sizes. It probably depends most on Asian Mfr's interpretation of Leica's populaity/desirabilty as a product idea and if they think a piece of the cake would be profitable even as a boutique item.

Bob

[Riley]

Hi Riley,

The FT sensor does have good potential for a "Leica CL-D" and have enough of an image difference not to compete with the M class. I think it is generally accepted that Leica dropped the CL, because it was cutting into M sales and I doubt they would create a similar situation today. This might set the stage for another Asian Mfr. to create the Econo RF as you describe.

I have been pondering the possibility of an electronic equivalent to the opto-mechanical range finder. It would still be manually focused, but use elentronics to do the rangefinding. This would be a good deal cheaper to fabricate and if put into a plastic over metal body would make your Econo-RF idea a possibility in a varity of sensor sizes. It probably depends most on Asian Mfr's interpretation of Leica's populaity/desirabilty as a product idea and if they think a piece of the cake would be profitable even as a boutique item.

Bob

 

of course this wouldnt compete with the M, having 1/2 the senor size and no M glass

i think some manufacturer will do it anyway, perhaps on APS C, tis better to be a part of the process than a competitor.

 

The Japanese were at one time quite facinated by rangefinders and made some quite beautiful examples. Canon 7, Nikon S2, Minolta Hi Matic, Yashica. Olympus Pen

 

They are wholy into some sort of retro gig at this time, in some part thats the facination. In this vain the Samsung HD, Nikon SP was re-released, the Rollieflex, the Minox range. Theres another like DMD but i cant recall the name

[lx1jon]

Woody,

 

OT from main thread, but I hope I may be in time to save you some cash. On the Mac it is trivially easy to disable the Caps Lock key -- something I am very pleased to be able to do as I have always found Caps Lock to be a solution to a question I never ask, and an accident waiting to happen.

 

Go to System Preferences (in the Apple menu), then select "Keyboard & Mouse", then on the Keyboard pane press the "Modifier keys..." button. In the drop-down that apears, simply select "No action" for the Caps Lock key.

 

Hope that helps you, and anyone else like me who isn't a real typist and is prone to fumbling.

 

Jonathan

[thisaccountisdeleted]

With the new keyboard I keep hitting the caps lock inadvertently.

 

You can disable the Caps Lock key in Mac OS X. Keyboard panel in System Preferences. Click the "modifier keys" button and then set "Caps Lock" to "No Action".

[atufte]

You can disable the Caps Lock key in Mac OS X. Keyboard panel in System Preferences. Click the "modifier keys" button and then set "Caps Lock" to "No Action".

 

Thanks, that's a really useful tip, i always keep hitting the Caps Lock button, but no more, hehe :-)

[Guest stnami]

WITH RESPECT TO YOUR STUDENTS, LIKE ALL OF US THEY WILL HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL THEY HAVE ACCUMULATED SOME RESOURCES TO GET INTO THE 'REAL" LEICA WORLD. LEICA HAS ALWAYS BEEN AT THE EXTREME END OF EXPENSIVE PRODUCTS AND LIKELY TO REMAIN SO.

.. I will dismiss the elitist implications...............for many money is not the issue as they have a canon 5Ds and nikons D200 etc with a stable of lenses, others are dirt poor. The luxes and cluxes don't cut the mustard, they are there to be pro photographers, photojournalists etc.

Never stated that they shouldn't have made the M but with all their expertise they could have taken another option as well. In the end they will need something more than a M to stay, for those who's needs are met so be itthere

 

 

R10.........nothing more than a rumour at this stage

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[jaapv]

R 10 has been clearly implicated by official leica sources. Integrated solution and full frame.