M6 TTL or M7?

[ianman]

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 In my mind, the M7 is the penultimate Leica M.

 

 

Do you mean the ultimate ?

[pico]

Do you mean the ultimate ?

 

No. Penultimate means the very best while also allowing the possibility of better.

It is a logical and necessary position.

 

Bone up on philosophy and grammar and it is clear.

Edited December 1, 2016 by pico

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[chris_livsey]

No. Penultimate means the very best while also allowing the possibility of better.

 

 

I'd push it down one to make room for the Leica M-A (Typ 127) 

[wattsy]

No. Penultimate means the very best while also allowing the possibility of better.

It is a logical and necessary position.

 

Bone up on philosophy and grammar and it is clear.

 

 

Leaving aside your poor manners, I think you are wrong about this. The word penultimate simply means "almost last" (paene ultimus) and, as you know, is commonly used to refer to the last but one in a series. It is a real stretch – and, frankly, rather weird – to use the word in the way you intended to. 

[pico]

Leaving aside your poor manners, I think you are wrong about this. The word penultimate simply means "almost last" (paene ultimus) and, as you know, is commonly used to refer to the last but one in a series. It is a real stretch – and, frankly, rather weird – to use the word in the way you intended to. 

 

I owe the group an apology for both my incorrect definition, but especially for being rude.

 

Thanks to wattsy for for the correction.

 

If anyone cares, I can attribute my misunderstanding.

Very Best,

Pico

Edited December 2, 2016 by pico

[Martin B]

Penultimate means the very best while also allowing the possibility of better.

 

I agree that the M7 is a step up from the M6 at least - I have currently both (I never had the TTL version of the M6). I like the M7 for some very basic things better than the M6: on/off switch and that the exposure dial can be turned in both directions. I admit that I rarely use the automatic modes of the M7 and still prefer to shoot manual as I do with the M6.

 

The M7 might have a few "downsides" if I am very critical - a bit more bulky and heavy camera than the M6, and that the full film cartridge isn't released as easily to be taken out as in the M6 (I read this is caused by the device to automatically detect the ASA speed of the film). Practically it hasn't been an issue for me yet that the M7 uses twice as much battery power as the M6 which is often elsewhere stated as a debit.

 

I currently use my M6 with B&W film and my M7 with color film - just a personal preference without any technical reason behind.

[pico]

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the full film cartridge isn't released as easily to be taken out as in the M6 (I read this is caused by the device to automatically detect the ASA speed of the film).

 

Yes, the film cartridge speed is read by metal fingers that tend to hold it in, however that's true only with early M7s. Later versions use LEDs to read the ISO. Upgrade is also possible.

[Martin B]

Yes, the film cartridge speed is read by metal fingers that tend to hold it in, however that's true only with early M7s. Later versions use LEDs to read the ISO. Upgrade is also possible.

 

Interesting - I was unaware of this update which occurred during the production. Not an issue for me, just a tiny difference compared to the M6.

[pico]

Interesting - I was unaware of this update which occurred during the production. Not an issue for me, just a tiny difference compared to the M6.

 

Same here. No real problem at all.

BTW, here are the reading prongs.

 

[Martin B]

Same here. No real problem at all.

BTW, here are the reading prongs.

 

 

 

I checked the SN of my M7 - it was produced in 2003. Do you have an idea when Leica switched from prongs to LED reading?

[earleygallery]

The M7 has an electronic shutter, just like my Leica R which cannot be repaired even by Leica.

 

The M6 has a mechanical shutter which can be repaired by most camera technicians.

 

Given the choice I'd go for the mechanical shutter every time.

[Guest]

I need some help to decide, I’ve just sold my M4-P with M6 top-plate, and now I want to upgrade but which one is best, a used M6 TTL for $1750 (Canadian dollars) or a used M7 for $1000 more? Thank in advance

 

As there are only little differences between M6TTL and M7, it might be perhaps somewhat easier for giving good advice, if we first know why you sold your M4-P.

[gbealnz]

The M7 has an electronic shutter, just like my Leica R which cannot be repaired even by Leica.

 

The M6 has a mechanical shutter which can be repaired by most camera technicians.

 

Given the choice I'd go for the mechanical shutter every time.

Honest question James, not trying to wind you up.

Is this for real/sure? I ask as I too have "worried" over this, silly as it sounds. I have a great user M6, and had a mint M7 for a while. The combination of "it's too nice to use", and the niggling thought that the electronics may give an issue which could be problematic to rectify made the decision to sell it a little easier.

Since selling it though, I miss some of the features I got slightly accustomed to, aperture priority exposure being one definite.

I've hankered for another, but the niggling thoughts have thwarted any money changing hands.

I'm looking at another M6 perhaps, a.58x V/F variant, not sure if I will get any further than looking, but looking anyway.

Gary

[chris_livsey]

I checked the SN of my M7 - it was produced in 2003. Do you have an idea when Leica switched from prongs to LED reading?

 

It was around 2006. As Leica do not use serials sequentially, they have a box on the bench and they are picked at random, then the box is topped up before it empties, a range is quoted. I have not seen a definite quote but as visually they are easy to identify it hasn't mattered and a very large number were changed FOC over time. What is harder to tell is when the finder was changed, the MP view finder was installed. 2885000 or 2850000 depending where you research and again many were changed post production.  

[earleygallery]

Honest question James, not trying to wind you up.

Is this for real/sure? I ask as I too have "worried" over this, silly as it sounds. I have a great user M6, and had a mint M7 for a while. The combination of "it's too nice to use", and the niggling thought that the electronics may give an issue which could be problematic to rectify made the decision to sell it a little easier.

Since selling it though, I miss some of the features I got slightly accustomed to, aperture priority exposure being one definite.

I've hankered for another, but the niggling thoughts have thwarted any money changing hands.

I'm looking at another M6 perhaps, a.58x V/F variant, not sure if I will get any further than looking, but looking anyway.

Gary

 

Hi Gary,

 

Just to clarify (reading my previous post now I realise it could be read the wrong way), I'm sure that the M7 is repairable as it is a current model.

 

However Leica said they couldn't do a shutter repair on the R3.

 

Someone here pointed me to a German company that states they can do shutter repairs on their website, but I've not been in touch with them. I did try several other UK based repairers including CRR and Aperture, who also wouldn't touch it.

 

The point I was making is that at some point the M7 will be discontinued and it will eventually fall to the same fate as my poor R3, whereas the mechanical shutters will always be repairable (as long as there are technicians with the know how!).

[wattsy]

It's worth pointing out that the M7 shutter is an "electronic shutter" in that the timing mechanism is electronically controlled (though, as is well known, the manual settings of 1/60 and 1/125 are mechanically timed), in other respects it is still the same traditional cloth shutter that is mechanically wound on and tensioned. This doesn't make it immune from becoming unrepairable but it is a pretty simple mechanism that Leica will be able to support with the necessary parts for a very long time. The R3, based on a Minolta chassis, has been out of production for forty odd years so it isn't entirely surprising that parts are no longer available (they are most likely uneconomic to produce).

[gbealnz]

Thanks James and Ian, appreciate the points you both make.

Gary

[pico]

To add a personal observation: for thirty years of news photography I used a Gossen Lunasix with Nikon F and Leica M2 and M4. When I went to the M7 and used it in A(uto) mode my exposures were better than ever. Place the blame or praise wherever you wish, but I put the praise to the fast response of Leica's  BTL meter.

 

I am not uninformed or silly;  for quickly changing frames the M7 is my friend.

 

Aside: I also shoot large format with hand-held meters but the changing light-scene is nothing like news, real life photography of which our 35mm mavens live.

 

Peace,

Edited December 7, 2016 by pico

[Frank Sellitto]

I used both M6 and M7, and prefered the M7, but $1000 is a lot

I

My last two camera purchases are both Leicas.

1.) high s/n plain M7 with both optical DX reader and MP finder from Camera West for $1900.00 usd.

2.) a real beauty of the limited M6 ttl 0.85 BP lhsa in near mint condition for a reasonable $3000.00. And for all the pros and cons of this camera vs an MP in the same pristine condition, I didn't hesitate and sprung for the LHSA.

 

My point being you can get a standard M7 from a reputable dealer for not much more than a M6 ttl

 

Frank

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[Martin B]

Both prices you are mentioning are overpriced IMO. You should get a classic M6 for about $1000-1200 (the TTL version is about $400-500 more but I would not insist on the TTL since it only has slight advantages for flash photography and the larger exposure setting wheel). M7 for $2750 is much too expensive - more realistic price is about $1800-$2000.

 

I have both, the classic M6 and the M7. Both do the same job - I use the M7 in full manual mode, too. The ISO wheel on the back of the M7 is not the best design IMO - the M6 is much simpler (and IMO better) here. The M7 needs more battery power, too.

 

I saw recently a few very good deals for M5 cameras - it doesn't look as fancy as the M6 or M7, but might have the best price/performance ratio out there currently.