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Leica/LUF @ P'kina in English


andybarton

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Thank you for the summary. I am another who was "holding out" for this years photokina. I may hold on a bit longer. I was hoping there "might" be an R solution: after all, it was Leica who put that up for discussion, but I'm not surprised to find otherwise. Leica will be lucky to survive, its not an "easy" game. iPhones are taking over from point and shoots, so there are less easy goal there, the S2 is hard to develop "quickly" and Hasselblad is hardly likely to make it easy. The larger format camera was a big risk: it may still work, but its still a risk. Leica should make sure they keep an eye on the Rangfinder concept, its the last "bastion" of hope really.

 

So kiss goodbye to the R: it was a "strange" beast really anyway. Not as odd as the Rollei 3003, but still the odd man out in the autofocus world. I would have loved an update to the DMR as the solution, but its too late for that now. The solution for me will be between R lenses on Sony (for the image stabilization), working harder on making the 200 blad and digital back work, or selling the lot and buying the S2 when there are enough lenses for it.

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Same here. Time to take a sabatical I think. The first week will probably be the most difficult, but it should be easier after that.

 

It is! But wonderfully refreshing thereafter :; Having a great time with my M9. Off on sabbatical again now!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Guest BigSplash
I don't call this "reading", but interpretation - in a very malicious sense.

 

- Limited ressources: have you ever met someone with unlimited ressources? Dr. Kaufmann did explain very frankly that bank's conditions to give loans for the new plant were totally unacceptable. This was in 2009 - have you ever heard about the financial market during this year? He also explained that the banks have become much more reasonable now - which didn't lead him to make announcements, but his outlook for the new plant was positive. What would you call a person who loans money for very bad conditions when he gets much betters ones a year later?

 

- CMOS: They explained that there is no producer of a CMOS-sensor fulfilling Leica's demands on the market.

 

- Mirrorless approach: neither the words "mirrorless" nor "EVIL" were mentioned.

 

- "Holes" in the lens line: Mr. Daniel said that there have never been as many Leica lenses for the M as now - which is a fact. I don't know any camera system which offers you a choice of so many different lenses - by Leica and other producers, from present and past production as the M-System. Those "gaps" he mentioned as well are from my point of view gaps in a list, but not gaps for practical use. To use the word "holes" is just ignoring facts.

 

- S2: they gave numbers: world market of 6000 large frame cameras in a year. Leica has sold "a number with appoximately four ciphers" in the first 6 months. What does this tell you about the market place of the S2? They said as well that professionals are no early adopters, but that demand for testing the camera on the photokina in their special studio has been much higher than they could fulfill.

 

-S2 central shutter: the delay was caused by a breach of contract by the partner - they didn't say this, it's my interpretation. Leica is developing it themselves.

 

- Demand for chrome M9: When I asked my dealer, if he'd exspect a chrome version, he told me that demand for chrome M8 has been very low. The people from Leica said, they would analyze if there was enough demand and decide again.

 

- Quality Control: Mr. Daniel spoke explicitely on the topic of cracked sensor glasses, said that the cause was found (Kodak) and solved. He also mentioned the problem of "red edges" and announced a solution by firmware (which I confess I didn't find convincing).

 

- Lens delivery: Mr. Schopf very explicitely explained that their suppliants of special glasses, which only Leica buys, can't fulfill their demands. He asked all customers for patience but was clear that Leica would not make any compromises in their quality standards (i.e. buying other glass which is worse).

 

Please, Mr BigSplash, try to read again.

 

I have and believe your interpretation is very very forgiving towards Leica. I want Leica to succeed also and genuinely am a big supporter of the brand.

 

That said last week I sailed with a Leica fan of many years (M2, M6, M7, R8,R9 etc) ...he has sold all his kit except M6 which he keeps for nostalgic reasons, and has bought Nikon. He loves my Leica M8. He laughed at the Photokina announcements and tells me that other Leica fans were likewise shocked.

 

You point out that they are a small company operating within a financially difficult environment. I agree and that is clear. However other companies have had flirtations with bankrupcy and have become leaders (Think Apple, Cunard, etc) I hope that we shall shortly see sparks that show Leica is on track,

 

However if M9 is now we are told exstock at some dealers that suggests the P&L good news may be about to slow down. The big announcement at Photokina was a Titanium M9 without flash, or hot shoe for a wide angle viewfinder that sells at prices of interest only to a collector. I would say that is worrying and a M10 is clearly a need maybe 10-10-10? .

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Andreas Kaufmann's statement on the Fujifilm X100 just looks silly.

 

That was my first thought as well. But now I'm not so sure anymore. The X100 received a lot of attention on the Internet and good part of those who wrote about the X100 didn't fail to mention the X1 as well. That alone is good for Leica. Plus, the X1 is available while the X100 isn't, so people who only now heard about the X1 (via the X100, so to say) might decide to buy - don't forget we'll have Christmas soon.

 

There are those of us who would rather wait for the X100 because of its viewfinder, but there are probably more who don't care about viewfinders and find the X1 a very attractive camera (which it sure is). From what we hear from Solms, it seems to sell like hotcakes, and it now being mentioned all over the Web together with the X100 surely won't hurt.

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I had a significant R outfit - two bodies and about 8 lenses - which I sold about three years ago. It was obvious to me, at least, that the DSLR had progressed to a level of sophistication/complexity that Leica didn't have the resources to match, and they would go bust if they were foolish enough to try. The introduction of a good digital M (by which I mean the M8.2 and the "upgrade path" for the original M8) brought Leica a badly-needed renaissance. I for one am pleased - and relieved - that the M9 is such a great success, and that their two other cameras are doing reasonably within their expectations. Considering the economic climate of the past two years, that is as much as anyone can expect.

 

I think that Leica are being very cautious about announcing any product development, rightly so, in view of the frenzy that seems to surround any half-hint that appears on the internet. The answers as translated and posted above (thank you to everyone involved) appear to me to be sensible and realistic.

 

Peter

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The big announcement at Photokina was a Titanium M9 without flash, or hot shoe for a wide angle viewfinder that sells at prices of interest only to a collector

 

No it wasn't Frank. Yet again your eye for detail has let you down.

 

You say you are a supporter of the brand, but virtually every post you make carries a negative message.

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He laughed at the Photokina announcements and tells me that other Leica fans were likewise shocked.

 

Would that be other "Leica fans" with yachts, Frank? I am sure they were wetting themselves with excitement when they received their Nieman Marcus catalogues and forgetting all about that nasty M9 Tit - after all, at 500 pieces it is so much more common, and their "friend" has told them it doesn't even have a hotshoe...

 

Tell you what, try for once not to derail a very useful thread with your ill-researched, ill-informed, half-baked Eeyore-"essays". Try to read and understand before attempting to "contribute".

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As I posted elsewhere on this forum, if you look at Fuji's financials, they have seen a marked reduction in sales of ALL imaging products, that's digital cameras as well as film sales over the last few years.

 

Much of this will be due to the global economy, and I would suggest perhaps a general decline in the numbers of 'happy snappers' using traditional photographic products as opposed to phone cameras and social networking websites.

 

Leica aren't immune to the economy, but appear to be doing very well under the circumstances.

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Guest BigSplash
No it wasn't Frank. Yet again your eye for detail has let you down.

 

You say you are a supporter of the brand, but virtually every post you make carries a negative message.

 

Are you guys telling me that the M9 Titanium has:

  1. A hot shoe for flash and viewfnders...judging from the LFI photos this is not the case.
  2. A Flash sync. socket which again I cannot see on the M9 images I have seen.

If the above is wrong please excuse me and another contributor here that also noted the missing flash capability on a camera of this price.

 

As for your comment about negative messages I am a firm believer that giving proper critical feedback and comment is good provided people are prepared to listen. Those that simply ignore Leica's issues are not providing anything of value.

regards

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A hot shoe for flash and viewfnders...judging from the LFI photos this is not the case.

Take a closer look, there's a slide in cover covering the hotshoe.

 

You can download the technical specs and read for yourself here...

 

Leica Camera AG - Photography - M9 Titanium

 

Where it says...

 

"Flash unit connection Via accessory shoe with center and control contacts"

Edited by stunsworth
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Guest BigSplash
Would that be other "Leica fans" with yachts, Frank? I am sure they were wetting themselves with excitement when they received their Nieman Marcus catalogues and forgetting all about that nasty M9 Tit - after all, at 500 pieces it is so much more common, and their "friend" has told them it doesn't even have a hotshoe...

 

Tell you what, try for once not to derail a very useful thread with your ill-researched, ill-informed, half-baked Eeyore-"essays". Try to read and understand before attempting to "contribute".

Bill my friend does not have a yacht....although I am not sure why you ask.

 

He did mention the Niemann Marcus Leica special as I was not aware. The conversation did go in the direction of Hermes...here we go again, and we both as Leica users thought that was unfortunate. He actually has stayed with Leica M6 film and like you has opted to not go Leica digital but Nikon, and he showed me what a Nikon can do. We both actually prefer Leica as we admire the classic looks, excellence of design, and the glass but honestly shake our heads as to many other things which you are aware of.

 

I guess we lived in hope that Photokina that comes only every two years would be something special after the huge international success of the M9, but were disapointed.

 

If the concerns I have raised here are irrelevant to what was said by Leica at Photokina then what exactly should we be discussing? I have read here nothing from anyone that suggests a ringing endorsement of Leica announcements at Photokina. Did I miss the euphoria over the Titanium M9 (as a design concept), or excitement about the D-Lux5, or the V-Lux2? or some other poistive news?

 

Please tell me Bill the items you have found "very useful in this thread" and please enlighten me what has encouraged you to buy more Leica kit in future years.

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"Glass half empty or half full": more like quarter full — but then what would you expect of a tiny camera company entering digital photography, a technology-driven field in which a company like Leica must rely mostly on off-the-shelf solutions from larger sub-suplliers?

 

Success in such a situation depends on making the right design and market choices and on aiming for the right niche, with management being the scarcest resource. In this context it strikes me that placing a $30mn in R&D bet on number "x" of the roulette wheel is not the best way of using either funds or management resources, and does not inspire confidence for the future.

 

Andreas Kaufmann's statement on the Fujifilm X100 just looks silly.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Scratching the Surface©

 

Unfortunately Leica doesn't have copier, printers and other business machines to support their camera division - unlike Canon and for that matter Ricoh. Other wise we might see an R system and or (speaking of silly) a modular camera system.

 

I am not sure why Dr. Kaufmann's statement on the X100 is silly - so I will except that as your opinion and move on.

 

Terry.

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He actually has stayed with Leica M6 film and like you has opted to not go Leica digital but Nikon, and he showed me what a Nikon can do.

 

Frank, I know that you regard "fact" as a four-letter word, but as usual you lie like a cheap Swiss watch. When have I ever said I was buying Nikon?

 

Please tell me Bill the items you have found "very useful in this thread" and please enlighten me what has encouraged you to buy more Leica kit in future years.

 

I think not, for that would class in my book as troll-feeding.

Edited by bill
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Guest BigSplash
Take a closer look, there's a slide in cover covering the hotshoe.

 

You can download the technical specs and read for yourself here...

 

Leica Camera AG - Photography - M9 Titanium

 

Where it says...

 

"Flash unit connection Via accessory shoe with center and control contacts"

 

Steve you are correct and I am wrong the thing does have a flash hot shoe....excuse me. Thank you for the link.

 

That said it does not have a flash sync socket, which is surprising if this is a concept camera aiming at the needs of photographers. It also does not show what you do with the hot shoe cover when using the flash in the hot shoe....

 

This design excercise, or limited production run seems to me like a gullwing Lambougini Countach which looks great until you have to pay a motorway toll and cannot do so through sealed windows and lift up doors!

 

Is this really a camera that anyone would actually want to use?

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Guest BigSplash

He actually has stayed with Leica M6 film and like you has opted to not go Leica digital but Nikon, and he showed me what a Nikon can do.

Bill you are correct I meant to say:

He actually has stayed with Leica M6 film and like you has opted to not go Leica digital. He chose to go Nikon, and he showed me what a Nikon can do.

 

Frank, I know that you regard "fact" as a four-letter word, but as usual you lie like a cheap Swiss watch. When have I ever said I was buying Nikon?

 

 

Sorry for such a grave error.

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It also does not show what you do with the hot shoe cover when using the flash in the hot shoe....

 

Do you really need instructions to tell you to put something in your trouser pocket?

 

That was the polite answer by the way, the alternative involved the phrase "where the sun doesn't shine".

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...However if M9 is now we are told exstock at some dealers that suggests the P&L good news may be about to slow down. The big announcement at Photokina was a Titanium M9 without flash, or hot shoe for a wide angle viewfinder that sells at prices of interest only to a collector. I would say that is worrying and a M10 is clearly a need maybe 10-10-10? .

 

Are we discussing what was anmnounced at the Photokina or what was said at the meeting of Leica representatives with the Forum?

 

The M9 Titanium was not the big topic at the meeting.

Leica made clear that they had understood the criticism which was uttered in this forum, but they also explained their point: The M9 Ti is just a one example by someone who has a view on camera design from outside the camera business. They asked how the attendants of the meeting liked the leather strap, and the answer was not positive. Mr. Daniel made clear that Leica would not again make the M5-fault again of experimenting with the way how one carries the camera. There was no announcement that the M9 Ti was a prototype of a future M.

 

Neither was there any mentioning what the M9 Ti is all about: earning a lot of money in a quick time. They don't have to ask the forum, how they gain money, they just do it - which is good.

 

A much more important topic was whether Leica should make early announcements about products which are not ready. They were very clear that they won't go prematurely on the market if they are not sure about their products.

 

As you mentioned Apple: What's the average time between an announcement by Apple about a new product and bringing it to the market? Have you ever heard of Apple employees not beeing sacked if they leak premature information?

 

I hope Leica will stay on their way. You may go ahead with your wishlists

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