M8's useful lifespan

[nikau]

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There have been some postings touching on this subject as parts of other threads, I know; but I wonder how long it will be before the M8 file quality is significantly overtaken? I look back at pictures I took on fairly good digitals four or five years ago and their technical quality is mostly awful by today's standards. I'm likely to buy an M8 this year and I'm sort-of expecting it will give me five years at the most before technical advances have made it unappealing to use any more (I'm talking about those that affect image quality, not convenience features).

As someone who still owns and sometimes uses the SL2 I bought in 1976, this is kind of a sad subject; but I realize we're in a brave new digital world now ....

Any thoughts?

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[bradreiman]

well-for me-it seems it will be usefull much longer than 5 years. I have been happy with 35mm for 25 years and the m8 looks as good and definitely better than 35mm film when scanned so.....you do the math. If you need better jewellery you can always update. IR issue may become annoying to deal with manually(filters) but otherwise I see this as a camera with at least 10 years of viability, even as a professional camera.....b

[Guest stnami]

.. second generation is usually a better product.

[sean_reid]

.. second generation is usually a better product.

 

And so is third, fourth, fifth, etc. Meanwhile there are pictures to be made. My own approach is to use the best tools (for my purposes) that I can afford and keep them as long as they're still doing what I need them to do. Most of my digital cameras were sold for much less than I bought them for but I made a lot of pictures with them, they helped me earn my living and I don't regret buying them at all. I think I would feel the same way about this even if I didn't earn money from photography. I think the trick is for one to get what works best for him or her without spending more than he or she can reasonably afford.

 

Brad made an interesting point in saying that 35 mm film never became obsolete for him.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[4season]

Tough to say how long the M8 will be viable, but availability of USB connections, SD cards and replacement batteries will be factors. I think the basic M8 image quality is pretty good as it is, but future M cameras will make it easier to achieve top results by handling IR, moire, dust and white balance a bit better.

 

I don't think we will see dramatically higher pixel counts anytime soon: There, you're ultimately limited by the properties of light itself, and like fine-grained but slow film, ultra-small pixels don't work so good in low light. I note that Fuji's latest F-series point-and-shoot camera boasts more pixels (8.3 vs 6), but decreased max ISO (2000 vs 3200) when compared to the older F30/F31fd.

[jrc]

You really can't compare what was being done five years ago, to what will be done five years in the future. Five years ago, we were at the start of the revolution; now we may be reaching a plateau, and there are lots of questions kicking around the problem of getting more pixels. Already, some people say, digital is better than most of the lenses we have; getting more pixels won't help that much -- we need better lenses, and that takes time. It also takes a lot of money, and the fact is, most people are pretty satisifed with both photos and lenses right now, so there's a question of market size for new expensive lenses.

 

There's also the question of file size -- how much larger do we want to make the files, when already people complain about file size, especially in post-processing? I expect Canon to go to ~22 mp with its next top-line pro camera, and Nikon to follow with possibly a split line (FF & DX) a year or so later, with full frame about the same size as Canon's. Then, I wouldn't be surprised if we went ten years or so without any major changes in sensors for the major makers...and I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see an M9 until 2012 or even 2015...unless perhaps one of the other rangefinder makers pops a surprise, and Leica feels it necessary to get bigger to keep up...

 

I think that there's at least a possibility that the next Leica will be an M8b, or M8x, in which some housekeeping changes are made, but the sensor remains as it is.

 

JC

[asfeir]

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I agree with most comments on this page.

Besides, current pixel count on M8 seems to extract the best you can from Leica and other RF cameras. I doubt that more pixels will do a better overall job.

Let's consider the negatives:

1- ull frame CCD will give far more vignetting

2- More pixels will result in smaller pixels i.e more noise

3- More pixels will also produce larger files, more computaions

 

Point 3 above is not a major handicap, we will certainly have more and faster memory and processing. The limitation in my opinion is in the size of the pixels, and whether a smaller size can extract even more from current top noth lenses

 

AAS

[Guest stnami]

And so is third, fourth, fifth, etc

.. depends on what Leica intends do, if the sensor stays the same for 3-4 years and cosmetics and tweaks are the name of the game, then the 8 is worth while.

[DaveSee]

.. depends on what Leica intends do do, if the sensor stays the same for 3-4 years and cosmetics and tweaks are the name of the game, then the 8 is worth while.

Well, yes, this same camera may yield a lizard skin exterior, but that market seems much weaker than, say, a new line of lenses optimised for the sensor... as the new 2,8/28 is meant to bridge the gap between film and digital usage.

 

With the iPhone, and other P&S cams reported capped at 6MP, and still-life folk getting what they need(and more) at 40MP, even if the later M model has an upgraded sensor, my want is on the energy front: batteries suck, literally. And that's not the sensor subsystem only, but another upgrade of the processor board... well within the scope of the M8 chassis to accomodate.

 

As folk amongst us--and Jono, here's to getting your kit back soon!--have demonstrated, 10MP is just dandy for now, and likely a good while. Deprecating factors are more likely that of energy/battery and file format, not the amount of data captured.

 

Now, if I could just train myself--and this M8--to "expose right" consistently... that may take years! (My neg film stock adds: "LOL". My hand-held light meter adds: "WTH?")

 

rgds,

Dave

[bayerische]

As long as there's money to be made the pixel war won't stop.

Just think about the amount of money that's being trown into Digital Photography.

Yes the investments where just as large if not larger by professionals in the days of film, but now the consumer is the money maker for the industry.

 

Old digital cameras, are getting "assaulted and battered" for not being up to current standards. Think about the old Monoliths such as the Canon/Kodak DCS 520 or 560. They cost as much as a decent new car, and they where celebrated back then! Today? Ha, you can almost get them for free. They had state of the art technology back then, but today they are nothing but an outdated and outperformed piece of Digital camera history.

 

Today's top end cameras will feel outdated in no more than 5 years. I think the Canon 1Ds is outdated, and seen it's glory days. Just have a look at the pricespan. I've seen fully working examples go under 1000euros, thinking that 4 years ago, back in 2003 it was a 8000euro monster!

 

I can't think the Leica will deteriorate in second-hand value as quickly, but @ 10MP in 2007, you ain't that much. Ofcourse, I know it's the only one, it has no competition. I hope that Epson would launch a updated verison of the R-D1.

 

Talking of sensor sizes. The natural development is a larger sensor. Perhaps even larger than 35mm full frame. I think that in the future we will se more cameras solely built around digital photography. This will mean all new design concepts. Given the problems that digital sensors have in today's "relic of film" lens situation.

 

Sensors that are bigger would mean less noise, higher resolution. The lenses wouldn't need to be better, but the effect would be more of a Medium format one.

 

Well some could argue that why didn't the camera industry back in the old days of film make all cameras MF? Cost of film, and the size of the camera. But with digital, if you have a whole new design focused in all parts on digital photography, there's no reason for not having a camera with a sensor twice the physical size of todays 35mm sensor.

 

Ofcorse you would have less light hitting the sensor, but more flexible and noise free high ISO capabilities are getting better every day.

 

In short, why stop progress? Take mobile phones for example. Nokia recently did a research about the usage of mobile phones. Most people only use the phone for voice calls and SMS, but even so more and more functions are built into the phones everyday. Why? To make money. Have something better than the competitor. And remeber, progress isn't always for the better:)

[Guest umb]

Unlike with its 35mm film cameras, Leica is now under pressure to keep pace with the technological advance of the digital imaging market leaders.

 

If the rumors are true that Canon is about to introduce a "true color" senser, i. e. one that does NOT need interpolation of the Beyer pattern, this would obviously be a HUGE step towards even better picture quality. Within 2 years, existing digital equipment will be badly outdated then.

[jaapv]

Given the results the M8 delivers- and I am not good enough a photographer to even find the limits of its performance- I think the lifespan for me will be very long, as long as I do not give in to market pressure. I hope Leica will be true to its tradition and not generate such gadget-driven pressure as we see today in the digital world. As for real advances in sensor technology, the current magenta crisis has at least given proof that is is relatively simple to exchange the sensor/electronics on this camera, giving hope to a possible sensor upgrade in the future. If that ever comes to pass, it won't be cheap either, I fear.

[wattsy]

As for real advances in sensor technology, the current magenta crisis has at least given proof that is is relatively simple to exchange the sensor/electronics on this camera, giving hope to a possible sensor upgrade in the future.

 

I'm not sure it's quite as simple as you think. I'm not sure that fixing the streaking/green blobs involved anything as drastic as swapping out the sensor itself (does anyone know exactly what was changed?).

 

Kodak did manage an upgrade programme like you describe with their full frame 'Nikon' for around £1k a few years ago. The key factor in a future 'sensor upgrade' programme for the M8 will be the costs involved. The M8 currently costs £2.5k (plus VAT). If it costs, let's say, £1.5k to retrofit a new M9 sensor (and associated electronics) into my existing M8 body, I think I'd rather just buy a new M9. By the time the M9 (and better sensor) comes out my M8 body may be a little bit tatty and the shutter will have had many actuations. A retrofitted M8/9 may also be slightly compromised in some ways compared to the all new singing-and-dancing M9 (I suspect an M9 will feature a larger LCD on the top plate and other 'improvements' compared to the M8).

[jaapv]

They exchanged the sensor board I think. I did not think it was simple., just thinking out loud. Of course on the M8 the body itself is basically in its final stage of development, both technically as technologically, making it a far more sensible to renew the electronics than on a DSLR, where the functions of the body itself are still evolving. Though most of it is gimmicry [does this word exist? I just made it up] imo.

[wattsy]

They exchanged the sensor board I think. I did not think it was simple., just thinking out loud. Of course on the M8 the body itself is basically in its final stage of development, both technically as technologically, making it a far more sensible to renew the electronics than on a DSLR, where the functions of the body itself are still evolving. Though most of it is gimmicry [does this word exist? I just made it up] imo.

 

The word gimmickry does indeed exist.

 

The points you make are sound but I still think the economics (from the consumer point of view) will weigh against Leica introducing a future sensor upgrade programme.

[Guest umb]

Given the results the M8 delivers- and I am not good enough a photographer to even find the limits of its performance

 

Everybody who uses noise reduction software has reached the limits of his camera. You don't need to be a good photographer to find this limit.

[marknorton]

Both the streaking/green blobs could be explained by problems in the process of clocking the pixel samples out of the sensor and converting the current values to digital.

 

We do not know for sure what was replaced but given the lead times, (fixed cameras shipping 4 weeks after the initial ship), it was likely not a huge problem. Something silly like an incorrect component value or missing grounding strap. They might well have looked closely at the actual sensor boards being installed and found the sub-contractor making them had installed a component backwards or an incorrect value.

 

I don't think the sensor has been replaced. The V1.09 firmware update indicates there are two versions of the sensor board which looks to be distinct from the sensor itself.

 

If you look at the cost and general hassle of making this small change, upgrading cameras to have new generation sensors in the future doesn't make much sense, especially if those changes are accompanied by different batteries, memory cards, PC interface and the rest.

[jaapv]

Everybody who uses noise reduction software has reached the limits of his camera. You don't need to be a good photographer to find this limit.

Noise is just one criterium - and a controversial one at that. If that constitutes the limits of a camera, I respectfully suggest that you have not even touched the boundaries.

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[stunsworth]

Everybody who uses noise reduction software has reached the limits of his camera. You don't need to be a good photographer to find this limit.

 

Well you've reached _one_ of the limits that's true, but there are others waiting to be reached ;-)

[sean_reid]

I'm not sure it's quite as simple as you think. I'm not sure that fixing the streaking/green blobs involved anything as drastic as swapping out the sensor itself (does anyone know exactly what was changed?).

 

It was not the sensor.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean