mwilliamsphotography Posted January 9, 2007 Share #21  Posted January 9, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) While it's nice to post images where a bit of extra shutter speed is helpful, the real challenge is in conditions where shadow, darks and blacks are a part of the scene. That's where noise bites you on the bum.  At my last wedding I took the M8 and just the 28/2 ASPH with no flash. It was a dark venue which I actually like for available light work because it looks rich. I was able to use ISO 640 for 95% of the shots ... and of the remainder, I used ISO 1250 ... of which about 50% came out okay. (I've posted 2 here as examples. They are non-critical, incidental shots that allowed me to experiment as I evaluate the abilities of the camera for wedding work)  Simply put, IMO the M8 is no match for the Canon 5D at ISO 1250 and up ... yet.  I suspect it will simply require further firmware/software improvements. Other cameras I own have made quantum leaps in improving higher ISO performance that way. If Leica gets ISO 1250 at a decent level of performance, that will do it for me. The lenses will deliver the rest of what I want to differentiate the images from those I do with the Canon. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/12985-m8-at-higher-iso-levels/?do=findComment&comment=137460'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 Hi mwilliamsphotography, Take a look here M8 At Higher ISO Levels. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jamie Roberts Posted January 9, 2007 Share #22 Â Posted January 9, 2007 Eoin, can you show a 100% un-processed crop from a shadow region? Â Carsten--are you only saying the M8 is noisier in the shadows than the 5d? Then that's completely true. But I'm not sure what it proves. Â If you push the 5d hard enough, you won't get noise. But you will get a tremendous lack of detail "all of a sudden" when the image turns to mush. Noiseless mush, but mush nonetheless. Same goes for the 1ds2. They hold shadow noise and with decreasing detail really, really well, and then they just don't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted January 9, 2007 Share #23 Â Posted January 9, 2007 Hey Mark-- Â Nice shots. I agree that the 1250 in the shadows with the M8 is no match whatsoever to the Canons. I'm just wondering though, if the 1250 speed itself would benefit from faster lenses and slightly more exposure. I know the f2 Summicron is the fastest 28 Leica has; I'd love a 1.4 version though, and I'm considering the CV 1.9 for precisely that reason. Â The other question is on the 50% of the shots that weren't ok, would noise reduction software have rescued any of them? Or did the detail go with the noise? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted January 9, 2007 Share #24  Posted January 9, 2007 Yeah Jamie, I was right at the edge of the available light exposure limit on a lot of shots. I like the look of the ones that came out okay. But, I got some banding on a few culls, and others just had to be lifted to much in C-1. Since they weren't critical shots they weren't worth the effort.  BTW, I had the V/C 28/1.9, and it wasn't any better than the Leica 28/2 in terms of exposure. Same for the V/C 35/1.2 ... I'd get the same meter reading from it as the 35/1.4 ASPH. Irakly thinks it's because the Leica glass transmits more light (clearer) at the same aperture. Don't know about that, but I did get the same readings in constant light so I sold the VC lenses.  Here are a couple of Canon shots at ISO 1600. I've found that the M8 is as good or better at ISO 640 compared to the Canons ... but in general the Canon seems to provide a different look to the stuff --- kind of pastelish ... attributable to the lenses I guess since I use to notice the same differences when shooting an EOS1V verses a M6 using the same film and lab. What I want for the available light work is the Leica look. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/12985-m8-at-higher-iso-levels/?do=findComment&comment=137476'>More sharing options...
bayerische Posted January 9, 2007 Share #25  Posted January 9, 2007 Here is a 100% crop of the ELAC speaker image @ ISO 3200. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/12985-m8-at-higher-iso-levels/?do=findComment&comment=137594'>More sharing options...
bayerische Posted January 9, 2007 Share #26  Posted January 9, 2007 And here's a 100% crop at ISO 1600 of the tree.  I'm sorry for the motion blur, Saturday night walk Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/12985-m8-at-higher-iso-levels/?do=findComment&comment=137600'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 9, 2007 Share #27 Â Posted January 9, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) While it's nice to post images where a bit of extra shutter speed is helpful, the real challenge is in conditions where shadow, darks and blacks are a part of the scene. That's where noise bites you on the bum. Ah-umm,darks and blacks-yes- I had a post before that should have prevented me from sitting down;) Half a stop overexposure did the trick. ISO 1250. Â Â Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted January 9, 2007 Share #28  Posted January 9, 2007 Oh well - might as well chip in. Got my M8 yesterday and went out for dinner with friends. shot these at 1250. Hand held. First one at 1/20th fully open, second at 1/90th. Sending a B&W conversion because I've not got the IR cut filter yet. re noise, I've work with 5D and 1D mkII and really, I'm not complaining. And being able to do this kind of work with the 50 1.4 pre-asph is SUCH a pleasure. Quiet, unobtrusive. It really is horses for courses. I'll continue to use the Canon kit for some assignments. I've done some of my best work ever with the 85 1.2 L and the 16-35 L - but it's like a re-awakening to be able to go out again this tiny Domke satchel with the M body + all the lenses I need...  So a big THANK YOU to Leica. Sure, there's work to be done - and another thank you to the nice people on this forum for helping to find solutions. But let's not forget how nice it is to work with a camera that's small enough to carry, but which gives results that are (at least technically!!) in contention with the best of the bunch.  Best  Chris Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/12985-m8-at-higher-iso-levels/?do=findComment&comment=137636'>More sharing options...
Eoin Posted January 9, 2007 Share #29  Posted January 9, 2007 Eoin, can you show a 100% un-processed crop from a shadow region?  Hi Carsten,  Attached find 2 100% crops @ 72dpi, The first is with all C1Pro noise, banding and colour noise suppression switched off and the second one is with the settings at their defaults. These were shot at ISO 2500 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/12985-m8-at-higher-iso-levels/?do=findComment&comment=137637'>More sharing options...
carstenw Posted January 9, 2007 Share #30 Â Posted January 9, 2007 Carsten--are you only saying the M8 is noisier in the shadows than the 5d? Then that's completely true. But I'm not sure what it proves. Â If you push the 5d hard enough, you won't get noise. But you will get a tremendous lack of detail "all of a sudden" when the image turns to mush. Noiseless mush, but mush nonetheless. Same goes for the 1ds2. They hold shadow noise and with decreasing detail really, really well, and then they just don't. Â Actually, I am saying that both cameras are noisier than the sample images posted here, simply because the downsizing to fit on this forum blends away the noise. The crops posted by Bayerische and Eoin all show that the colour sprinkle is there on even 5D images, and the 5D has the best high-ISO performance in the world at the moment. Â I think we need to report more accurately We also need to accept that the M8, in spite of not delivering as clean images, still does a fantastic job, even at high ISO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted January 9, 2007 Share #31 Â Posted January 9, 2007 Very true Carsten, the noise disappears when you resize for the web. But what supprises me is given the negative reports of the high ISO abilities of the M8 I'm finding it very good once you get an accurate exposure. Â As for M8 v's 5D noise, I think given my experiance of both the 5D has less sprinkle when viewed on the computer screen but in print A4 or A3 I can't see much difference, well not from a normal viewing distance. If one was to look had enough the difference is there. Both good and bad. Overall I must say having dumped Canon for Leica, I don't feel I'm missing much but gained a lot (for my requirements) other may feel different. For me it's the clarity and detail that the Leica can render, they (images) have a look or feel that I'm very comfortable with at the moment. Â It's funny(for me anyway) the more I use the M8 the more I understand why this brand has such a strong following. Even to the point where I'm enjoying my photography even more than I did before and I did not think that was possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 9, 2007 Share #32  Posted January 9, 2007 Overall I must say having dumped Canon for Leica, I don't feel I'm missing much but gained a lot (for my requirements) other may feel different. For me it's the clarity and detail that the Leica can render, they (images) have a look or feel that I'm very comfortable with at the moment. It's funny(for me anyway) the more I use the M8 the more I understand why this brand has such a strong following. Even to the point where I'm enjoying my photography even more than I did before and I did not think that was possible. Hah! I found that out thirty years ago. May I quote your post as such at persons hammering the M8 or accusing me of being a Leica-paid positive troll for liking it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted January 9, 2007 Share #33  Posted January 9, 2007 Actually, I am saying that both cameras are noisier than the sample images posted here, simply because the downsizing to fit on this forum blends away the noise. The crops posted by Bayerische and Eoin all show that the colour sprinkle is there on even 5D images, and the 5D has the best high-ISO performance in the world at the moment. I think we need to report more accurately We also need to accept that the M8, in spite of not delivering as clean images, still does a fantastic job, even at high ISO.   Not sure what your point is Carsten. That there is noise at ISO 1000 and above? Yes there is. But it is a matter of degree. The 5D is better for now. Meaning that at ISO 1600 the Canon files tend to be cleaner at printing sizes than those from the M8 at 1250. Frankly, I don't want the files to look like ISO 200. I don't even like the M8 files below ISO 400. But that's a personal preference.  As to reporting accurately, that could only be done by sending each other prints. I find what you see on the screen at full resolution in terms of noise is not necessarily what shows up on the print. Same for scanned film shots which fair poorly on screen and print much nicer in reality.  As has already been mentioned, how you meter, shoot and process high ISO images can make or break the shot. I've been experimenting with increasing the resolution of M8 high ISO shots in Adobe Camera RAW. The interpolation process of doing this seems to mitigate the noise somewhat. Finely tuning and applying noise reduction at the increased size seems to help. Then you take it back down to printing size afterwards. It takes time and computer memory, but for some critial images it's sometimes worth it.  Here's close crop of the Canon ISO 1600 shot from above. I'd never print it this large for a wedding application, but it shows it can be done to some extent. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/12985-m8-at-higher-iso-levels/?do=findComment&comment=137714'>More sharing options...
Eoin Posted January 9, 2007 Share #34 Â Posted January 9, 2007 Hah! I found that out thirty years ago. May I quote your post as such at persons hammering the M8 or accusing me of being a Leica-paid positive troll for liking it? Â Jaap, please feel free, but I must qualify that it's met and exceeded "MY" requirements. I may have made some angry comments regarding how I felt mis-treated and informed by Leica when the whole IR issue surfaced, but with use of the M8 I'm just blown away at quality and feel of the whole system not to mention the outstanding image quality it can resolve. Â I could never understand the Leica fans blind loyalty and still can't in some cases but I have become a convert to the Leica look and style of shooting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanosu Posted January 9, 2007 Share #35  Posted January 9, 2007 I think we need to report more accurately  Hi Carsten, in my opinion 100% crops are good for comparing cameras but they do not represent how a print by a camera at a given size will look like; 100% crops only tell you how a 26in by 39in print would look like as seen from a distance of two to three feet (assuming a monitor with 100 pixels/inch)  The picture I posted in this thread was scaled to an 8in by 12in dimension on my computer screen and then a screen shot of a portion was taken; that is what was posted. So short of sending each other prints I think that is a reasonably accurte way to show how an 8in by 12in print would appear from a particular camera.  Furrukh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted January 9, 2007 Share #36 Â Posted January 9, 2007 My comment was more aimed at the kind of post which says "the 5D (or M8) is great at high ISO", and then post an 800x500 as proof, and then everyone says "wow!". My point is that there is noise in both, and that this is fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanosu Posted January 9, 2007 Share #37  Posted January 9, 2007 My comment was more aimed at the kind of post which says "the 5D (or M8) is great at high ISO", and then post an 800x500 as proof, and then everyone says "wow!". My point is that there is noise in both, and that this is fine. Stated this way, I agree with you  Furrukh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted January 9, 2007 Share #38  Posted January 9, 2007 i think jaap's point went unoticed and yet it is important so i will restate it  at high iso if you tend to overexpose 1/3 to 1/2 stop you will find some benefit in less noise  that i agree with my experience with LC1 which has shocking noise is identical Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthury Posted January 9, 2007 Share #39 Â Posted January 9, 2007 Let me try: 75/1.4, wide open, tungsten/candles, ISO 1250, 1/16th, hand-held.No Neat Image. I think noise is not an issue here, this kind of thing is what the M8 is made for. Now if only somebody came up with a solution for motion blur in those conditions....(Other than Superglue that is ) Â Did you processed it thru PhaseOne ? If yes, there's an auto NR in there unless you turned it off. Just wanted to highlight this fact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 9, 2007 Share #40 Â Posted January 9, 2007 Yes- I habitually slide that all way left. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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