jlancasterd Posted January 7, 2007 Share #41  Posted January 7, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Bill  A magnificent set of shots!  I can't believe the sniffiness of some of the other postings on this thread. We all know that noise is a characteristic of high ISO with digital cameras - just as 'grain like footballs' is a characteristic of high ISO film.  The implication appears to be that the M8 isn't the 'tool for the job' for such photography. If so, what is - and can we see some examples of images shot in similar circumstances? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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andybarton Posted January 7, 2007 Share #42 Â Posted January 7, 2007 A great set, Bill. Thanks for sharing them, and your enthusiasm. Â Er, am I missing something? I could have done better with my mobile phone. (Moderators: Would you allow Robin to post non-Leica images on this occasion?). Indeed. I would welcome the chance to see mobile phone pictures taken under similar circumstances and similar lighting conditions that are better than these. Â Robin? Over to you... Â Finally, perhaps someone could remind me how many ISO 2500 colour negative or slide films are available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted January 7, 2007 Share #43 Â Posted January 7, 2007 Bill, Â I enjoyed your series very much. And as far as any noise I noticed is concerned, the only kind that bothers me is from the ignorant poster earlier in this thread. Â Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted January 7, 2007 Share #44 Â Posted January 7, 2007 Bill, Congrats on getting the images.... I did not go the M8 route but finally decided to stick with M6/7 for film and go with Canon for Digital. The reason for me posting here is that I also shoot some similar stuff as you showed although mainly in black and white and I know how difficult it is. The last theater shots I did before Xmas was with the canon and I found some of its features really helpful, so all the more credit to you for capturing these with your M8 where framing and speed are crucial. I only wonder why you shot at such high ISO and not lower with some fill flash?, just curious, I find I can shoot most at about asa 800 with a bit of fill, but there again I wasn't there and cannot judge the lighting. I won't post an images as they would probably be deleted coming from canon, but again well done and the moise and artifacts that can be seen in the first few can mostly be corrected I believe, Â cheers andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grober Posted January 7, 2007 Share #45 Â Posted January 7, 2007 Bill, Â With an effective FOV of about 27mm, you must have been on stage with these performers, yes? Was this a dress rehearsal? Or, at the very least, you must have been standing in the first row of seats. Â Thanks for posting; these give me much hope. My M8 is still in Germany for its refit. Â -g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted January 7, 2007 Share #46 Â Posted January 7, 2007 Some of these 'noisemakers' seem to believe that it should be possible to turn up ISO into the stratosphere WITHOUT ANY EFFECT ON THE IMAGE STRUCTURE. Â Well, I'm old enough to remember film. And at that time, way back in the Paleolithic, nobody did imagine that you could make an image on Tri-X that looked exactly like one on Tech Pan. Greater speed meant more grain (physical 'noise') and less resolution and DR. Just as then, there is no free lunch. A digital image with the gain turned up will show noise. But just as there were people who still used Tri-X, and found the result useable, people will use high-gain digital and accept the result. There did in fact develop a Tri-X esthetic -- and believe me, there will be a high-gain esthetic too, in time. Â The real motive of the pixel-sniffers is that they must shore up their rickety self-esteem by screaming contempt at and of everything except their excellent selves. They have always been with us; they have in turn attacked photography, dryplates, film, roll film, 35 mm film, tele lenses, wide angle lenses, orthochromatic film, panchromatic film, colour film -- anything within sight. The difference is that when I was young, in the 1930's and '40s, these people seldom got past the editors of the photography magazines. At least, they had to muster a semblance of argument ... today, the immediate access to digital media permits these people to vent their spite without any kind of restraint. I am not calling for censorship. I just call for civilized behaviour. Â The old fudge from the Outer Darkness Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted January 7, 2007 Share #47 Â Posted January 7, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Bill--fabulous shots all, under very difficult circumstances. Â As a couple of people have implied, noise at 2500 ISO with this camera is absolutely fine, if there's enough light to get a correct digital exposure (you can always make things darker in post). But pushing a couple of stops at ISO 2500 will (obviously) induce some noise; no doubt about it. It does on every other camera I've used too, though some have higher sensitivity to begin with than they claim. Â What I find interesting with the M8--and different from other cameras I've used--is that it keeps detail along with noise when underexposed, and doesn't just smudge. I've also found that you can shoot lower ISO and then push in C1 and you get--and I don't know how they did this--less noise. Â IOW, the noise profile of the M8 / Kodak sensor is very different than, say, the CMOS Canons... Â I'm very happy, too, Bill, that you like that chrome profile, though it's true you could probably desaturate it a bit or reduce the contrast a little bit in a couple of those shots. Â BTW--one thing to try if you want to keep the skin tones and red response but have a lot of blue greens in the shot is to adjust the color "wheel" in C1 WB panel to increse blue-green bias. I know that's where that profile lacks a bit right now (and I'm working on making new ones, too!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flatfour Posted January 7, 2007 Share #48 Â Posted January 7, 2007 I will quote someone else on this forum from some time back. "Noise is artistically irrelevant. It is purely a valid technical criticism." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C. Posted January 7, 2007 Share #49 Â Posted January 7, 2007 I'd like to make another, less technical point. There is a tendency, especially these days, with "high-definition" being virtually synonymous with "top-quality" in the video realm, for people to assume that maximum sharpness and minimum noise are intrinsic features of the best photographs. This is nonsense, of course, and the equivalent of arguing that impressionist paintings are somehow inferior to those which are more "realistic". Â I'm not suggesting that these aren't reasonable topics for discussion, especially in the context of the technical abilities and limitations of a particular camera. But many of the best photos I have seen (or taken) have grain structures which would worry the purists. Â I'm speaking for myself, of course, but super-realism is not something that I expect or need from a camera. Every camera and lens combination, coupled with the input of the user, results in interpretations of the world around us. And from what I've seen thus far, the M8 is very well-suited to the pursuit. Â Best regards, Â Tony C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyp Posted January 7, 2007 Share #50 Â Posted January 7, 2007 Bill If you got any more, show'em to us; I like these a lot. I also agree with what Tony C. just said. GaryP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted January 7, 2007 Share #51 Â Posted January 7, 2007 What Tony just said. Â By the way, when speaking of ISO 2500, if I recall correctly, Sean Reid in his review said that the Leica ISO rating is quite conservative, and that the actual ISO is closer to the traditional one (ie, that 2500 is closer to a real 3200.) In that case, pushed a stop would get you closer to 6400... Â Or am I remembering incorrectly? (I just got up, haven't shaved, too lazy to run over to Sean's site and search it for the numbers...) 8-) Â JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted January 7, 2007 Share #52  Posted January 7, 2007 What Tony just said. By the way, when speaking of ISO 2500, if I recall correctly, Sean Reid in his review said that the Leica ISO rating is quite conservative, and that the actual ISO is closer to the traditional one (ie, that 2500 is closer to a real 3200.) In that case, pushed a stop would get you closer to 6400...  Or am I remembering incorrectly? (I just got up, haven't shaved, too lazy to run over to Sean's site and search it for the numbers...) 8-)  JC  so, is that a kind of underexposure then, which would make an image noisier therefore you could +1/3 stop and not overexpose ? and have a less noisy image ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share #53 Â Posted January 7, 2007 Many thanks for the positive criticism. Â The shoot is problematic. I was at the performance, in the front row. The camera was positioned about 6 inches above the apron edge. so the camera angle is low. If I had stood up the audience might have been unhappy. I have shot this show in dress, but that just never seems to do it compared to a performance. Â Yes, Sean did say that the M8's 2500 is equivalent to 3200 on the Canon. I need 1/250 to capture the movement. Actually, the last pic is a little blurred. Damn, she moves fast. They probably taught that at the Kirov, too. She IS a magnificent dancer. Her position could not be more perfect! Â One problem is that the 24mm is only f2.8 at the fastest. I had no IR-cut filters for my other lenses at that time. I would now use my 35mm f1.4 asph and gain another couple of stops. That would allow me to reduce my iso to 640, probably. I really want an f1.4 wide lens! Â Lighting in this particular show, which I have been photographing for about 20 years, is uneven with lots of dark and dim areas on stage. This is mostly from not having enough instruments, but it is problematic. Â I will try to work some more with noise reduction as well as Jamie's profiles. This was my first try of the M8, C1, and Jamie's profiles. Â I am very pleased with the movement in the pictures. Â Regards to all, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 7, 2007 Share #54 Â Posted January 7, 2007 Bill nice stuff pure and simple and thanks for posting. It shows your talent and the M8 capibilities and that is all we need to know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrewer Posted January 7, 2007 Share #55 Â Posted January 7, 2007 Agree with Guy...great shots under the circumstances and showcase of what you can accomplish with the M8 when you put it in the right hands. Â Was wondering, Bill....Le Corsaire? Â Kirov dancers all have that look: medium to slightly less than height and athletic moves that emerge from the most graceful position...sublime. Â Thanks for sharing. Â Allan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrewer Posted January 7, 2007 Share #56  Posted January 7, 2007 Bill,I enjoyed your photos. I am enjoying my M8 as much as you seem to be. It is too bad that one can not share their work without being subjected to comments such as:  Agreed.  Robin,   Check your PM's  Thanks.  Allan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share #57  Posted January 7, 2007 LOW NOISE -- Watch Out!  OK, for the whingers, here's a now iso shot taken this evening at Walden pond.  ISO 320, 24mm @ 2.8, 1/90, monopod Jamie's v1 profile, standard exp, no wb, focus  The sky was quite striking. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/12898-this-is-more-fun-than/?do=findComment&comment=136447'>More sharing options...
carstenw Posted January 7, 2007 Share #58 Â Posted January 7, 2007 Is this *that* Walden Pond? It is much larger and clearer than I imagined... Â Off-topic: am I the only one here who read this book because of "Zen and the Art..."? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrewer Posted January 7, 2007 Share #59 Â Posted January 7, 2007 Off-topic: am I the only one here who read this book because of "Zen and the Art..."? Â LOL! Â Â Hardly, I think... Â Actually most high schoolers in America would read this in their last pre-college year. If not then, when they did get to college. Â Thoreau and his theory of "Civil Disobedience" are pretty basic American conceptual exercises for young minds. Â Thanks. Â Allan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkM6 Posted January 7, 2007 Share #60  Posted January 7, 2007 Your monitor is ok Mark....or there must be an alien force de-calibrating them worldwide  I got that problem taken care of!  Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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